Mugen Type S Pads or Spoon Pads - Need Advice
 

Hi guys

Anyone tried these before? https://www.rhdjapan.com/mugen-type-...5-ap1-ap2.html
Mugen rates them from 100 ~ 650 degrees C and for the street driver who occasionally tracks the car. Looks like a wide heat range. Do they dust a lot? Do they squeal a lot on the street? What's their life span like in general?

How about these pads from Spoon? https://www.rhdjapan.com/spoon-sport...1-ap2-fn2.html
Spoon rates them from 0 ~ 400 degrees C and for street to circuit as well. That's a much lower heat range than the Mugen above though. Dusty? Noisy? Life span?

I'm mainly spirited street but intend to start tracking soon. Perhaps I'll do 2 to 3 track days per year... not boosted... yet.
Would Endless MX72 be ultimately the better choice than the above? How about the Project Mu NS400 or HC+ 800 in comparison?

Arigato gozaimasu (thank you very much) :happy:

The OEM pads are the absolute best blend of dust, bite, rotor life, noise, life span, and temp range, etc. The amount of engineering and testing and specifying for unlikely scenarios that OEM's perform is mind blowing.

Any other pad will deviate toward one end of that "web chart".

If you want something additional to the OEM envelope, just decide what you want to give up.

Hopefully, that was already obvious.

It seems as if you're looking for a pad that makes more friction and works at a higher temp than OEM.

If you are looking for a pad that works on track and street....unfortunately, it doesn't really exist. Stoptech 309's get close. But with compromises on both ends.

Or just for spirited street driving? These exist, but you should know if you want low temp performance (something like Hawk HP+)?

Or something that gives up some initial bite, but is geared toward higher temp fade resistance (something like Stoptech 309)?

ANY high friction pad will dust a quite a bit. The only question is how corrosive or "permanent" that dust is.

MOST high Mu pads will also make some noise at some point in the temp range.

Almost every high Mu pad will have a very abbreviated life span and the semi metallic ones will take the rotors down quickly as well.

What items do you want to give up least? Like, for example, "dust is fine, but noise isn't!" or "dust and some noise is fine as long as my wheels and fenders don't rust from the brake dust caking". etc.

Thanks.

Currently I'm on EBC Yellows and they bite more than OEM and have been said to take more abuse well even in track situations although not all out track. They're also a street/track capable pad, not just street nor just track. They dust A LOT however that dust washes off easily and doesn't damage the wheels or the fenders. So, if I had to go with one of the above pads as an alternative to the Yellows I'd like them to be as easy to wash off and not exhibit any noise on the street. Perhaps some noise while it warms up is OK but not for a prolonged time. The Mugen Type S seems more track capable, or maybe even more able to withstand hard driving runs more than the Spoon set I listed can due to their higher temp range. They may be more aggressive than the EBC Yellows. I am currently on my stock rotors and don't want to get them chewed up through experimenting with other pads. I also found Seido-Ya SM400 which are capable of 50-650 degrees c. Not sure if they're semi metallic or even if the Yellows I currently have are semi metallic...

I'll look into the Stoptech 309 you mentioned. Stoptech in general seems quite affordable.

Might go for these from Project Mu rather. The HC 800: Project Mu HC+800 Brake Pads - Honda/Acura (Front) - PH8F336 - Honda S2000 00-09 | Evasive Motorsports

Thoughts, experiences?

Yellows are organic...which is why the dust comes off and they are easy on rotors. They're pretty far from something I would trust on the track. I tried them a few years back and they crumbled apart and physically fell off of the backing plate after like 1 or 2 track days. Lots of people have the same experience. They say they've been reformulated...but...I don't really use "track/street" blends anymore.

I have 2 sets of pads and 2 sets of rotors. One mated set for street use. One for track use.

I use stoptech 309's on the street (overkill). I would do better to just use a plain Jane semi-metallic.

I use Carbotech compounds on track - compound chosen for what track I'm going to (also overkill...but I already have these compounds laying about).

Stoptech 309's are also organic. In a lot of ways, they are similar to yellows...except I haven't seen them fall apart. I have used them on track in the past.

309's will not work reliably on anything but a completely stock S2000 with 300TW tyres. They are ~1300-1400F pads. **I sometimes do use them on the rear of the car on slower race tracks, as an exception to what I said above.


They're ~1500F (800C) pads. I like their initial bite. They will very likely stain your wheels, as they are metallic (IIRC). I think the dust I had from these mostly came off, though.

They *should* work if your car is close to stock. They seem to be more stable than the 309 when used near their max temp.

Gotta remember...309's are CHEAP (with a capital C-H-E-A and P) for a reason.

I wouldn't fret much about chewing up rotors. Buy cheap rotors and resist bringing them close to your heart by naming them, humanizing them, or becoming attached to them in any other emotional sense.

Powerstop PSA (not PST) trackday pads may work as somewhat of a "dual use" pad...BUT they will definitely stain wheels, and the bite is AWFULLY weak once they've been used on track. Bite is ridiculously strong before they've been used on track. Also...they are MF'ing cheap.

Thanks for the experience with Yellows. I'd rather ditch them then. Still got them in the rear and there should be good life left in those. The front needs to go.
Are the 309's also called Sport or "performance"? I couldn't find anything else. If you could post a link to the exact 309's you bought I'd appreciate it.

As for the HC+ 800: your opinion on their bite and longevity under track conditions is consistent with others who tried them so that must be a good thing. I'm quite keen on these. Will they fit in directly without shaving off some of the corners, etc? I'd like to protect my wheels but hey, can't have everything lol. I would get Meguiars brake dust barrier to make it easier to clean the dust off. My car is close to stock currently. She will be supercharged sometime next year but I believe I'll be doing my first track day in NA form. The Project Mu pads come in at $127.66 from Evasive so that's a pretty sweet deal for that much brake. They're "super graphite metallic" pads: https://www.project-mu.co.jp/en/prod...hcplus800.html

"Don't get emotionally attached to the rotors..." :D

The reason I call them 309's is because their name has changed confusingly.

Used to be "Street Performance"...and now they're "Sport". The confusing part is that they also have a pad named "Street", which is a performance street sport pad.

eh?

the right ones have a part number starting with 309. They're currently called SPORT.

the PMU I have didn't need mods to fit. But its a good idea to check the fit and shave a small amount if they don't slide easily. They're aftermarket parts...so never trust that they'll just fit.

They will chew your rotors to bits though, M8.

Confusing indeed lol. Found a front and rear set of 309.xxxxx on ebay for only $106! It would cost me $127.66 for the front set of HC+800 alone from evasive and then there's $20 shipping to my NY forwarding address...thought it would be free shipping in the continental US?!

Might as well give the full Stoptech 309 set a go in place of my EBC yellows...

When you say the Mu will eat up my rotors do you mean that will happen even while driving on the street where braking won't even be close to max temp? I ask this because I have to be honest and say that's where I am 100% of the time until I take the car to the track probably in January 2019...

Powerstop Track Day PST pads IMO. They're been the best ones I've tried for the money.

PST = less aggressive compound
PSA = More aggressive compound

I've used both for track days and both have great street manors as well. They both dust quite a bit though....gotta have a trade off somewhere. My front PST's are still going after ~10 track days last year w/ front brake ducts. Had to replace the rears after the whole season though.

Best pricing I've seen on 309's is either Thmotorsports or rockauto.

The PMU are semi-metallic pads. They're inherently hard on rotors just like any other semi-metallic. Most track oriented pads will chew up rotors AND also wear out faster themselves during street use.

Again...there is no such thing as a "street/track" pad. It doesn't exist. What DOES exist is clever marketing phrases like "A TRUE STREETABLE TRACK PAD" or "SATISFYING LIGHT BEER".

The 309's get somewhat close to being a "track/street" pad...but they fall VERY short when used for track. You'll be compromising quite a bit on that end as compared to a real track pad. They're prone to some crumbling when pushed past their temp (they're organic) and they're not entirely stable for track temps when using the stock braking system. I sure AF wouldn't use them on anything faster than a stock S2000 on 300TW on a track.

On the street, they feel like factory pads in terms of bite. But they're very gentle on rotors and the dust washes off super easy.

The PMU is geared more toward track use, but you'll be giving up rotor life and the dust will potentially stain everything you hold close.

Either one WILL need a proper bedding procedure before you can use them without fear of death.

"309's fall VERY short when used for track" = YIKES! But I don't wanna kid myself. I have yet to go to any track with my ~15HP more than stock and ~35kg lighter than stock 240 TW S2000...? It may be my only track day come January next year for another 6 months or so. I don't think I wanna hit said track with my EBC fronts on about 20 percent life left... especially after what you said. Perhaps the 309 set will hold up for my first run and as you said are quite streetable. Who knows if I'll even get up to 1400 F the first time...
I'd like a little more bite than factory on street,,, or would I. Will the 309's inspire more confidence on the street than factory?

Which rotors will resist the PMu or similar semi-metallic pads?

What bedding procedure did you follow?

Thanks.

Thanks man. I'll take a look at those.

309's are cheap. So yes, give them a shot before moving on. They feel like stock pads at street temps. The bite is (+/-) the same as stock. They come alive when they heat up a bit.

Rotors are rotors. Maybe a high carbon rotor would resist abrasion? But the cost outweighs any benefit.

Just buy heaps of cheap rotors. I certainly do. There's no real benefit in spending $$ on rotors, if you're tracking this car. Centric makes a reliable, cheap rotor. Its not like the PMU will wear them out every day or something. They will just wear significantly faster than normal. :shrug:

Bedding procedures are on/in the box, usually. Should just be successive aggressive stops followed by 15-20mins of cooling.

Most efficacious :)

Worth running those 309's then. Glad to hear that they really come alive after getting some heat into them. Did you say that they're quiet in terms of minimal to no squeal?

Centric rotors, got it. I see EBC also sells rotors locally and they offer slotted variants so I could give those a go. Apparently not that expensive. As for PMu, well I suppose there's only one way to know how rough they are on the rotors :D

So the usual procedures then. Looking forward to this!

I ordered Stoptech 309 for the front now off of eBay. Looking forward to getting them, running them and then telling you what I think. $63 for the front.

Right on. Grab a set of rotors to m8 them to, m8. They work best on a fresh surface.

Budget is tight... still gotta order Spoon magnetic bolts and radiator cap (because I really want those) and need to change oil. I'm changing my oil between 3-6000 miles now. Motul 8100 5W40 and I need the original PCX oil filter too.

I'll just wash the rotors with carb cleaner after removing the EBC's. Should be fine?

For rotors I may just want to upgrade to slotted ones next year sometime. Just for the front then leave the rear stock.

Sand off the existing pad layer. The pads need a fresh surface to bed into. Otherwise, they won't work quite as well as intended.

I'd say the PMU HC800 are up your alley. It's what I switched to from the OEM ap2 pad. It has more initial bite, dusts more and works in cool temps.

I would just slap on your new pads and burnish them in as is; no need for any resurfacing.

Alright I'll get some fine grade sand paper and give them a once over come time for the new pads. Waiting for arrival...

Thanks for the recommendation however it's too late for the PMu HC800 at this point since I bit the bullet on the Stoptech 309's to give them a shot. Later on I'll probably give the HC800 a try as well. B Serious said the type of dust they produce may stain the wheels and fenders....
No resurfacing of rotors needed for the new pads...?

Semi metallic pads usually don't need a fresh surface to be effective. They work on abrasion for friction. Hence the higher rotor wear.

Organics and Ceramics count on a transfer layer. Which is why you really should mate them to a fresh (or resurfaced) rotor.

You taught me something new, cheers m8.

309's are still en route to me... the wait is... not really killing me but I need them soon!

One day I will perhaps get the mighty Spoon blue mono calipers or...Endless :)

P.S. I see Stoptech offering low priced stainless brake lines. I'm tempted just for the front. Your thoughts?

If you're going to do stainless, do all 4 corners + clutch line. If the car sees significant track time, it'll be worth it in the end.

As long as the stoptech lines have some sort of guv'ment public road certification (DOT or TUV, for example) and a teflon jacket, I'd say go for it.

If they don't, I'd say pass on it.

I have been using Russell lines for a while without any signs of wear or problems. Its good for pads that throw sparks at the lines...and also a good insurance against bursting from heat/pressures seen from track use.

The factory lines work fine too. Just inspect for wear from time to time.

She won't be seeing significant track time but that could change as I've heard tracking especially in the S2000 is addictive :)

They've got the DOT certification. Check out this link: https://www.evasivemotorsports.com//...e=ST-950-40008

I may go stainless later on down the road. As you said the factory rubber lines work well too but need to be inspected from time to time especially if they see track time.

Does high temp/performance brake fluid like Endless, Project Mu G Four 335 (which apparently changes colour from green to clear when its time to change the fluid) or ATE super blue really make a significant difference to pedal feel, outright braking performance or is it more of a safety net giving you confidence that your fluid isn't gonna boil on track? https://www.project-mu.co.jp/en/prod...her_fluid.html

High temp fluid is key for repeated hard braking events. The fluid needs to stay in liquid state to remain uncompressible.

If it changes to a gas (boils), your pedal will travel more than you want.

Old brake fluid soaks up water. It will boil faster.

You don't need high temp fluid for street use. Some people may disagree. But you should consider the fact that I am right and they are wrong.

As long as the fluid is a clean liquid of the proper viscosity, the pedal will feel the same whether you're using the expensive stuff or normal DOT3 that came with the car.

That being said....

Flush your fluid every year or two to prevent rust from building up inside braking system and ruining it.

Be mindful not to push the pedal past its "nornal working range" when you flush it, if it hasn't been done regularly for the car's life.

DOT4 needs to be changed more frequently than DOT3, as it absorbs more of that tasty, tasty water.

HAHAHA. I will certainly consider that fact, m8 :D

I have a clear understanding of what happens to cause the fluid to boil now, thanks. Honda dealer changed my brake fluid not too long ago, probably less than 2 years and when I look at the master cylinder it still looks clear. Clutch reservoir however, not so clear. I need to give that attention soon. I can only assume that the dealer used straight up 'normal' DOT3, or maybe 4 fluid but nothing in the way of high temp fluid. If I'm realistic I will say that Motul RBF600 is what I'll be buying since the Mu and Endless fluids need to be imported anyway...

So do you advocate pumping the pedal to flush the fluid out over gravity bleeding? Would a litre of fluid be sufficient too flush out the old fluid through all 4 brake lines and get the master cylinder up to the full line?

1 man method with pushing fluid via the pedal has always worked for me. Its fast and easy.

Gravity method works well too. I use it when I have time to let one axle drip while I move on to some other task.

As long as you're performing either method correctly, you'll get the same result.

I would remove the dirty fluid from the reservoir via vacuum pump or turkey baster first. Then refill before starting. That way you're not wasting new fluid by trying to push the old reservoir fluid out.

1L works just fine. Buy an extra 0.5L bottle if you're not sure. If you're new at it, you will use more fluid to get it thoroughly exchanged.

Once opened, just use the whole bottle. Once the seal is broken, moisture will slowly degrade the fluid while it sits on a shelf.

I've used ATE with good results with track use. Also Castrol GT-LMA. And Valvoline Dot4 synthetic when I was in a pinch and needed a "department store" available fluid while at the track already.

Motul certainly works. I've never out-paced ATE...so...never tried Motul.

Right. As long as I use the correct method pumping will work fine. Main thing is to make sure air doesn't get into the system by keeping the master cylinder topped up, yes?

Not sure if I can get ATE blue locally. Motul RBF is available off the shelf so I may as well go with that. Need to replace my clutch fluid as there is debris in the master cylinder. I've got a vacuum pump. I'll give that a try. Getting under my car is a bit of a pain since I don't have a nice low profile trolley jack to get underneath the centre of the car and lift it easily high enough to get onto jack stands. Next investment....

I installed my new Stoptech 309's last week. I cleaned the rotors off with sand paper and carb/brake cleaner. Then I drove it up to 60mph then down to about 10 mph and repeated this quite a few times. Unfortunately I couldn't get all the way up to 60 or more mph due to the area I drove in and slow people everywhere...
Eventually the scary "almost no brakes" feeling subsided and after each hard braking event I could feel more bite. Must have done approximately 10-12 hard brake events by the end of it. This is apart from the many other normal braking up to a light or stop street...

I am impressed thus far. The fitment was spot on! Funny thing I noticed was the EBC Yellow pad on the front left was more worn than the right side...how come?
EBC Yellows at the rear still have a decent amount of chunk left to them.

If your pads are wearing unevenly, your pins may be stuck or sticking.

I always take apart the caliper brackets, clean up the pins (use a wire wheel or sand paper if needed...or buy new hardware), and re-grease with silicone paste or high temp caliper grease.

Don't use anti-seize of any sort...as it is not a lubricant for sliding parts.

Oh yes that makes sense. I remember now that a while ago my left front caliper was sticking to the point that I smelled the pad burning. I greased the top caliper pin at that time and it was fine after that. When I installed the new pads I greased all four caliper pins.