OEM CR Shocks vs Koni Yellows
01-26-2015, 08:01 AM
#11
You seem dead set on Konis... Just get them.
You'll likely be happy with them compared to your current setup.
Right now, you have the worst possible setup - H&R springs that are way too soft for the amount that they drop the car. And on top of it, the dampening/valving of the stock showas do not match, and you're likely running out of travel.
Whatever you do will likely be an improvement - whether you could have had better for equal (or slightly more money) will be indiscernible to you unless you buy another set of suspension (or drive someone else's car for an extended period - street and track).
As for serious track work - 500 lbs. is also quite soft. Especially if you use the top tier extreme category of tires (RS3, D-ZII, ad-08r, Rivals, RE-11a, etc.).
For serious track work on street tires, I think 600-700 lbs (10K - 12K) is the sweet spot. It also retains streetability, assuming you have a decent set of shocks that are valved properly.
For street tires, anything over 700 lbs (12K-ish) is too much. You don't really need much more spring until you step up to r-comps. I think all the 16K setups that are being used with street tires are overkill and way too much spring.
Edit: forgot to mention my preference... CR shocks over the Konis.
You'll likely be happy with them compared to your current setup.
Right now, you have the worst possible setup - H&R springs that are way too soft for the amount that they drop the car. And on top of it, the dampening/valving of the stock showas do not match, and you're likely running out of travel.
Whatever you do will likely be an improvement - whether you could have had better for equal (or slightly more money) will be indiscernible to you unless you buy another set of suspension (or drive someone else's car for an extended period - street and track).
As for serious track work - 500 lbs. is also quite soft. Especially if you use the top tier extreme category of tires (RS3, D-ZII, ad-08r, Rivals, RE-11a, etc.).
For serious track work on street tires, I think 600-700 lbs (10K - 12K) is the sweet spot. It also retains streetability, assuming you have a decent set of shocks that are valved properly.
For street tires, anything over 700 lbs (12K-ish) is too much. You don't really need much more spring until you step up to r-comps. I think all the 16K setups that are being used with street tires are overkill and way too much spring.
Edit: forgot to mention my preference... CR shocks over the Konis.
As for your preference, this is why I made this thread. There seems to be overwhelming support for the CR setup, which is great, but with very details as to why.
If the CR or PSS is so much better, then convince me. I haven't bought anything and I have an open mind.
01-26-2015, 08:15 AM
#12
For me it comes to being lazy and desiring the most robust suspension - while I can do it easily I hate tinkering with the car
Also there's more time to get from driving then their is playing with adjustment knobs, for me.
For those reasons that's why I would pick the PSS
http://farnorthracing.com/autocross_secrets6.html
Read this, his opinion is not an island, other noted suspension builders fat cat and guy Ankeny also like the bilstein.
Again I wouldn't plan on purchasing and using it as is, I'd buy a used set and send it off for valving and springs
Also there's more time to get from driving then their is playing with adjustment knobs, for me.
For those reasons that's why I would pick the PSS
http://farnorthracing.com/autocross_secrets6.html
Read this, his opinion is not an island, other noted suspension builders fat cat and guy Ankeny also like the bilstein.
Again I wouldn't plan on purchasing and using it as is, I'd buy a used set and send it off for valving and springs
01-26-2015, 08:17 AM
#13
Originally Posted by Apex1.0' timestamp='1422209605' post='23480834
So for the Koni to CR comparison, I think we can agree both shocks are equal quality. The question is, shock design, features and valving profile.
Who is "we"? I don't know a single reputable person who would call these equal quality.
Stick to the CR shocks and forget about height adjustability and features in this comparison.
Lets make it a general statement.
Do you agree that Koni shocks are manufactured with an equivalent level of components and processes as compared to OEM Honda/Showa?
Because I have owned several Koni products in the past, and they have all been of high quality. However that is subjective, similar to someone's feeling on the OEM shocks.
But for the sake of argument lets put that aside. Is that your only point, that Koni is a lower quality shock than the OEM? If so fair enough. So why are we forgetting ride height adjustability or other "features"? Since ride height adjustability is a benefit and so is a shock that is rebuild able and tunable and so is a shock that is adjustable.
01-26-2015, 08:27 AM
#14
For me it comes to being lazy and desiring the most robust suspension - while I can do it easily I hate tinkering with the car
Also there's more time to get from driving then their is playing with adjustment knobs, for me.
For those reasons that's why I would pick the PSS
http://farnorthracing.com/autocross_secrets6.html
Read this, his opinion is not an island, other noted suspension builders fat cat and guy Ankeny also like the bilstein.
Again I wouldn't plan on purchasing and using it as is, I'd buy a used set and send it off for valving and springs
Also there's more time to get from driving then their is playing with adjustment knobs, for me.
For those reasons that's why I would pick the PSS
http://farnorthracing.com/autocross_secrets6.html
Read this, his opinion is not an island, other noted suspension builders fat cat and guy Ankeny also like the bilstein.
Again I wouldn't plan on purchasing and using it as is, I'd buy a used set and send it off for valving and springs
01-26-2015, 10:36 AM
#15
I would also go with the PSS over the CR and CR over the Koni.
I'm biased, but everything about the build quality of the PSS is superior to a Koni.
I'd get the PSS, get it corner balanced, and just drive it. When you eventually get to a point of really wanting more and having reached the limits of the setup - send it to Guy Ankeny for revalving and custom spring rates.
I ran my custom PSS from Guy this past weekend - amazing. Everything about it was amazing. I never quite found the limits of the suspension - mainly because I didn't want to risk going off in the mud and getting stuck (or worse, rolling my car - which happened to someone else on Saturday).
Having ridden in other cars with Eibach R2, Tein SRC, and KWs, I really liked the way my car felt. That said, I never drove those cars... Again, biased opinion from me, but I like the whole "just drive" aspect of it.
I'd say 90%-95% of my lap times can be attributed to the driver, and probably only 5-10% will be due to setup changes (assuming I could even set appropriately). The sweet spot window for setting suspension is considerably smaller than entire range of adjustments (especially for DA shocks), and makes it's it really easy to make things worse...
I'm biased, but everything about the build quality of the PSS is superior to a Koni.
I'd get the PSS, get it corner balanced, and just drive it. When you eventually get to a point of really wanting more and having reached the limits of the setup - send it to Guy Ankeny for revalving and custom spring rates.
I ran my custom PSS from Guy this past weekend - amazing. Everything about it was amazing. I never quite found the limits of the suspension - mainly because I didn't want to risk going off in the mud and getting stuck (or worse, rolling my car - which happened to someone else on Saturday).
Having ridden in other cars with Eibach R2, Tein SRC, and KWs, I really liked the way my car felt. That said, I never drove those cars... Again, biased opinion from me, but I like the whole "just drive" aspect of it.
I'd say 90%-95% of my lap times can be attributed to the driver, and probably only 5-10% will be due to setup changes (assuming I could even set appropriately). The sweet spot window for setting suspension is considerably smaller than entire range of adjustments (especially for DA shocks), and makes it's it really easy to make things worse...
01-26-2015, 10:50 AM
#16
I really, really wanted to do exactly what you are describing. The issue is value. I researched Fat Cat and others on revalving the PSS. The issue is, out of the box the spring rates are too soft for what I am doing. I have rates similar in the H&R springs, and I don't have nearly enough body control. I am not even running sticky tires yet. To get them revalved with new springs I am already getting into KW or Ohlins territory as far as money. So that's the problem with the PSS or H&R (same thing), stock I am already past the spring rates and valving, modified I might as well buy a higher end off the shelf shock.
I have been down this road (virtually). https://www.s2ki.com/s2000/topic/110...for-the-money/
I will look a little closer at the PSS again. Thanks for your input, I appreciate your opinion.
01-26-2015, 11:31 AM
#17
Their is no doubt in my mind Showa makes a quality damper. I have used their hrc race stuff on Honda race bikes and their stuff is awesome in terms of build quality and maintenance.
My only problem with Showa race suspension and the reason I went with Ohlins is support and cost. Yes I said it, Ohlins is cheaper than Showa hrc stuff and it's equally hard to find a rebuilder. With Ohlins I have rebuilders from here to the east coast. On the west coast I can have my TTX 36 mk 2 in a 1.5 hr turnaround time from Dan Kyle.
Support is key!!!
Monotube vs twin tube:
Not sure why you are stuck on mono tube or twin tube. Personally I think you are drinking too much of the race car koolaid-no offense. Good suspension is good suspension. Also Ohlins TTX and kW club sports are both twin tube design. Monotube was an easier design to get functioning quickly with limited resources for racers and tuners that's why they cornered the race equipment only people. Like wise bad twin tube suspensions are bad.
Honestly I went from an Ohlins 46mm monotube to a TTX 36 to a TTX 36 mk2 but I'll be honest I can't tell a damn bit of difference, once the shocks were dialed in, but the OG monotube Ohlins 46 series had better build quality and longer service intervals.
As far as ride height adjustability, the Koni does not have ride height adjustment out of the box, companies like ground control make a threaded collar system you slip on to the spring perch to control ride height. you can toss a threaded collar on to the CR shock for ride height adjustment. Also just for your knowledge, that is not true ride height adjustment unless the spring is short enough to not engage preload.
All I'm saying is just be aware of what your needs are.
My only problem with Showa race suspension and the reason I went with Ohlins is support and cost. Yes I said it, Ohlins is cheaper than Showa hrc stuff and it's equally hard to find a rebuilder. With Ohlins I have rebuilders from here to the east coast. On the west coast I can have my TTX 36 mk 2 in a 1.5 hr turnaround time from Dan Kyle.
Support is key!!!
Monotube vs twin tube:
Not sure why you are stuck on mono tube or twin tube. Personally I think you are drinking too much of the race car koolaid-no offense. Good suspension is good suspension. Also Ohlins TTX and kW club sports are both twin tube design. Monotube was an easier design to get functioning quickly with limited resources for racers and tuners that's why they cornered the race equipment only people. Like wise bad twin tube suspensions are bad.
Honestly I went from an Ohlins 46mm monotube to a TTX 36 to a TTX 36 mk2 but I'll be honest I can't tell a damn bit of difference, once the shocks were dialed in, but the OG monotube Ohlins 46 series had better build quality and longer service intervals.
As far as ride height adjustability, the Koni does not have ride height adjustment out of the box, companies like ground control make a threaded collar system you slip on to the spring perch to control ride height. you can toss a threaded collar on to the CR shock for ride height adjustment. Also just for your knowledge, that is not true ride height adjustment unless the spring is short enough to not engage preload.
All I'm saying is just be aware of what your needs are.
01-26-2015, 07:14 PM
#18
I've been debating between Bilstein PSS, Bilstein PSS9, H&R coilovers and CR shocks with Swift Spec R springs for my AP1. I was considering Fortune 500s, and still may again, but I've seen too many owners say they're slightly bouncy (I know you can get stiffer valving to counter that).
The reason I didn't mention Koni Yellows (or their new orange shocks) above, is because they don't fit right. Don't you have to drill out the diameter of the top hat? And I've also heard the threads at the bottom do not match the OEM bolt. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that is RIDICULOUS. It's like Koni is selling us a generic shock body with custom valving. If I'm buying replacement shocks, I want perfectly fitting replacement shocks. I refuse to butcher my top hats like that.
The reason I didn't mention Koni Yellows (or their new orange shocks) above, is because they don't fit right. Don't you have to drill out the diameter of the top hat? And I've also heard the threads at the bottom do not match the OEM bolt. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that is RIDICULOUS. It's like Koni is selling us a generic shock body with custom valving. If I'm buying replacement shocks, I want perfectly fitting replacement shocks. I refuse to butcher my top hats like that.
01-26-2015, 09:56 PM
#19
The top hats don't need drilling. The bottom bolt holes are OEM thread.
The only drilling you need to do is on the 2 small bushings on top of and under the top hats. They're the two "Not Used" items in this pic
The only drilling you need to do is on the 2 small bushings on top of and under the top hats. They're the two "Not Used" items in this pic
01-27-2015, 06:50 AM
#20
I've been debating between Bilstein PSS, Bilstein PSS9, H&R coilovers and CR shocks with Swift Spec R springs for my AP1. I was considering Fortune 500s, and still may again, but I've seen too many owners say they're slightly bouncy (I know you can get stiffer valving to counter that).
The reason I didn't mention Koni Yellows (or their new orange shocks) above, is because they don't fit right. Don't you have to drill out the diameter of the top hat? And I've also heard the threads at the bottom do not match the OEM bolt. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that is RIDICULOUS. It's like Koni is selling us a generic shock body with custom valving. If I'm buying replacement shocks, I want perfectly fitting replacement shocks. I refuse to butcher my top hats like that.
The reason I didn't mention Koni Yellows (or their new orange shocks) above, is because they don't fit right. Don't you have to drill out the diameter of the top hat? And I've also heard the threads at the bottom do not match the OEM bolt. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that is RIDICULOUS. It's like Koni is selling us a generic shock body with custom valving. If I'm buying replacement shocks, I want perfectly fitting replacement shocks. I refuse to butcher my top hats like that.
Koni/gc
PSS
FA 500
Pick your poison...