ohlins r&t vs bilstein b16
03-30-2017, 09:13 AM
#21
03-30-2017, 09:33 AM
#22
The pss9 adjisters adjust, just not consistently. From one click to the next doesn't produce a proportional change. As made up example, changing from click 5 to click 6 might give a 10% change, but then 6 to 7 is 35%, then 7 to 8 is 1% (I just made up these numbers for illustration.) Worse, they are inconsistent from one shock to the next. So to make them close to even left to right might require 5 clicks on one side, 7 on the other. But without a shock dyno, you'd never be able to tell how much they are off one side to the other.
So all you are doing with the adjusters is throwing darts at a board, and not really seeing where they landed.
How do we know all this? Cause smart people that know how to build shocks have put them on a shock dyno, and figured all this out for us.
The bottom line is Bilstein doesn't like shock adjusters, and they include them only because that sells. If they didn't have pss9, they'd lose a lot of sales to people that want shiny knobs to play with. So they don't put a lot of effort into making good shock adjusters.
So all you are doing with the adjusters is throwing darts at a board, and not really seeing where they landed.
How do we know all this? Cause smart people that know how to build shocks have put them on a shock dyno, and figured all this out for us.
The bottom line is Bilstein doesn't like shock adjusters, and they include them only because that sells. If they didn't have pss9, they'd lose a lot of sales to people that want shiny knobs to play with. So they don't put a lot of effort into making good shock adjusters.
Yes....perhaps. But they DO adjust. So one can tailor the shocks a little bit as per preferences.
Who cares if you have to unevenly adjust? And who cares about even-ness if you're just adjusting for comfort? Or even for spirited driving or HPDE's.
Turn the dial til the shock feels good. At least you have the option.
I felt like the adjuster did what it was supposed to. Soft = softer. Stiff = stiffer. Keeping it simple allows for massive winning.
03-30-2017, 09:43 AM
#23
People harp on the PSS9 adjuster and encourage buying the PSS and then having them revalved and re-sprung by a specialist, in order to reach an optimal compromise.
Sure. But does that serve the AVERAGE user? Someone who wants to just bolt something on and make their own minor adjustments on the spot.
How much does that cost? $1K for the system. $1K for labour. And... $300-400ish for springs?
And down time?
Its kinda like saying, "I encourage the average usee not to buy a car with slotted alignment provisions. Because they're not necessarily even from side to side...and a race shop will weld my control arms in place and/or custom bend my spindles for one set solid alignment".
And I suspect that a lot of people read in a book somewhere that PSS9 adjusters are sooooo badddd without ever having experienced them in person.
Sure. But does that serve the AVERAGE user? Someone who wants to just bolt something on and make their own minor adjustments on the spot.
How much does that cost? $1K for the system. $1K for labour. And... $300-400ish for springs?
And down time?
Its kinda like saying, "I encourage the average usee not to buy a car with slotted alignment provisions. Because they're not necessarily even from side to side...and a race shop will weld my control arms in place and/or custom bend my spindles for one set solid alignment".
And I suspect that a lot of people read in a book somewhere that PSS9 adjusters are sooooo badddd without ever having experienced them in person.
03-30-2017, 09:53 AM
#24
The pss9 adjisters adjust, just not consistently. From one click to the next doesn't produce a proportional change. As made up example, changing from click 5 to click 6 might give a 10% change, but then 6 to 7 is 35%, then 7 to 8 is 1% (I just made up these numbers for illustration.) Worse, they are inconsistent from one shock to the next. So to make them close to even left to right might require 5 clicks on one side, 7 on the other. But without a shock dyno, you'd never be able to tell how much they are off one side to the other.
So all you are doing with the adjusters is throwing darts at a board, and not really seeing where they landed.
How do we know all this? Cause smart people that know how to build shocks have put them on a shock dyno, and figured all this out for us.
The bottom line is Bilstein doesn't like shock adjusters, and they include them only because that sells. If they didn't have pss9, they'd lose a lot of sales to people that want shiny knobs to play with. So they don't put a lot of effort into making good shock adjusters.
So all you are doing with the adjusters is throwing darts at a board, and not really seeing where they landed.
How do we know all this? Cause smart people that know how to build shocks have put them on a shock dyno, and figured all this out for us.
The bottom line is Bilstein doesn't like shock adjusters, and they include them only because that sells. If they didn't have pss9, they'd lose a lot of sales to people that want shiny knobs to play with. So they don't put a lot of effort into making good shock adjusters.
03-30-2017, 10:33 AM
#25
B, I agree with you that custom valved pss and new springs is money better spent on something like Ohlins. To me, the pss, or pss9, only really work for a street car, that maybe sees a little track, but not with tires that would tax the weak springs that come with the pss/pss9. Otherwise the math to customize them just doesn't work in your favor, compared to just buying better stuff off the shelf.
So for that mostly street only car, the pss is probably a better choice for most than pss9. Due to the adjusters, due to most of us more likely to mess it up than make it better, and due to adjustability is not really going to add 50% more value, which is about what it adds to cost. That is all I'm trying to say.
Regarding your alignment symmetry example, its not apples apples. With alignment the machine tells tech when both sides are adjusted equal. With shock adjustment, there is no feasible way short of shock dyno to tell how to get both sides equal, unless its built into shock via quality adjusters.
So for that mostly street only car, the pss is probably a better choice for most than pss9. Due to the adjusters, due to most of us more likely to mess it up than make it better, and due to adjustability is not really going to add 50% more value, which is about what it adds to cost. That is all I'm trying to say.
Regarding your alignment symmetry example, its not apples apples. With alignment the machine tells tech when both sides are adjusted equal. With shock adjustment, there is no feasible way short of shock dyno to tell how to get both sides equal, unless its built into shock via quality adjusters.
03-30-2017, 12:04 PM
#26
Whats your reasoning for saying the PSS9 adjustment is so bad? From my experience they can be adjusted from very soft to firm. All 9 settings are usable and I can feel the difference. And they're easy to adjust, just turn the dial by hand. I've seen a few people who didn't assemble the adjustment knob correctly, but that's about the only criticism I've heard.
Any idea how the PSS pre-set damping compares to the range of the PSS9? Is it like 1, 5, 9?
Any idea how the PSS pre-set damping compares to the range of the PSS9? Is it like 1, 5, 9?
The PSS9s sub par adjuster has been well documented.
Autocross to Win (DGs Autocross Secrets) - Shocks
Bilstein makes a great, simple and effective monotube that I would recommend. Just not the adjustable one.
Also consider the cost. Just above 1k the PSS makes sense. At 1400-1600 the PSS9 does not in the world of DFV for 1900.
03-30-2017, 02:17 PM
#27
That article hardly condemns the Bilstein PSS9. I've owned 3 sets of PSS9 on my various S2000 cars and they've all worked fine for my needs, which is a comfortable street coilover that offers better handling than stock. It's fairly common knowledge that PSS9's are too soft to be the best choice for a dedicated track coilover.
BTW, if you time your purchase right you can get PSS9's around $1200. Non-adjustable PSS are usually around $300 cheaper, personally I'd rather have the ability to adjust the damping to give me the ride I want, even if it is claimed to be a little inconsistent.
With the price of Ohlins coming down it makes them a viable alternative, but when they were 2x the cost of Bilsteins they weren't worth it for me, for the street.
Anyway, my experience with PSS9 has been very good and I haven't ever had a problem with the adjustment or noticed any inconsistency.
BTW, if you time your purchase right you can get PSS9's around $1200. Non-adjustable PSS are usually around $300 cheaper, personally I'd rather have the ability to adjust the damping to give me the ride I want, even if it is claimed to be a little inconsistent.
With the price of Ohlins coming down it makes them a viable alternative, but when they were 2x the cost of Bilsteins they weren't worth it for me, for the street.
Anyway, my experience with PSS9 has been very good and I haven't ever had a problem with the adjustment or noticed any inconsistency.
Last edited by s2ka; 03-30-2017 at 02:19 PM.
03-30-2017, 04:38 PM
#28
Good damping is as important on the street as on the track, in some ways more so. The Tein SS that were on my car were utter shite over potholes/bumps/other New England road irregularities. To the point that I was beginning to hate the car. So I invested in the Ohlins *primarily* because of street usage (though I track it and compete in time trials with it). With the Ohlins dampers, street ride is infinitely better despite 13k/11k rates vs. 9/7 with the crap Teins.
03-30-2017, 06:29 PM
#29
That article hardly condemns the Bilstein PSS9. I've owned 3 sets of PSS9 on my various S2000 cars and they've all worked fine for my needs, which is a comfortable street coilover that offers better handling than stock. It's fairly common knowledge that PSS9's are too soft to be the best choice for a dedicated track coilover.
BTW, if you time your purchase right you can get PSS9's around $1200. Non-adjustable PSS are usually around $300 cheaper, personally I'd rather have the ability to adjust the damping to give me the ride I want, even if it is claimed to be a little inconsistent.
With the price of Ohlins coming down it makes them a viable alternative, but when they were 2x the cost of Bilsteins they weren't worth it for me, for the street.
Anyway, my experience with PSS9 has been very good and I haven't ever had a problem with the adjustment or noticed any inconsistency.
BTW, if you time your purchase right you can get PSS9's around $1200. Non-adjustable PSS are usually around $300 cheaper, personally I'd rather have the ability to adjust the damping to give me the ride I want, even if it is claimed to be a little inconsistent.
With the price of Ohlins coming down it makes them a viable alternative, but when they were 2x the cost of Bilsteins they weren't worth it for me, for the street.
Anyway, my experience with PSS9 has been very good and I haven't ever had a problem with the adjustment or noticed any inconsistency.
03-30-2017, 11:34 PM
#30
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Autocross to Win (DGs Autocross Secrets) - Buying Shocks
Jump to the 2011 update at the end of the Bilstein section. It sounds like Bilstein may have corrected their previously reported issues with their adjuster. If all that separates the options is $400, I personally would save the extra money and get the Ohlins.
Jump to the 2011 update at the end of the Bilstein section. It sounds like Bilstein may have corrected their previously reported issues with their adjuster. If all that separates the options is $400, I personally would save the extra money and get the Ohlins.