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Quick question, which turbo from Borg Warner would compare favorably to the new(ish) G25-660? I know BW just released a new Black series EFR refresh, but it seems like they're all large frame turbos.
Sidenote: any recommendations for a BW IWG turbo with a divided 3" V-band turbine inlet? That's what my manifold can accept, or regular Vband also.
Quick question, which turbo from Borg Warner would compare favorably to the new(ish) G25-660? I know BW just released a new Black series EFR refresh, but it seems like they're all large frame turbos.
Sidenote: any recommendations for a BW IWG turbo with a divided 3" V-band turbine inlet? That's what my manifold can accept, or regular Vband also.
Thanks.
The EFR7163 is the closest. The G25-660 I think will make a little more power and be more durable with similar transient response. Any pics of your manifold? Only Garrett has an aftermarket 3" v-band divided turbine inlet flange designed to go with GTX30-35 turbos.
There shouldn't be a significant advantage to a divided v-band since it needs to be aligned.
The EFR and G25 are available as IWG. The EFR adds a built-in recirculating BOV on the compressor housing and comes with a 3-port boost solenoid with mounting on the compressor housing. The EFR turbine wheel is made with a material with 1/2 the density which should let it spool faster, all other factors being equal.
But that is when things get interesting. The compressor maps of the G25-660 and EFR 7163 are similar. However, the G25-660 uses a 67mm compressor wheel and 54mm turbine wheel, the 7163 wheels are 71mm and 63mm. That is enough of a difference that the G25-660 should actually have less inertia!
EFR updated its 3 largest models for 2019. The G25 shipped a year earlier. It is quite possible the EFR will update its small frame turbos shortly, as Garrett will probably expand its G-series between the G25 and G42.
There is no independent performance testing overall and few comparisons of any type. The only one I know of that is almost relevant is on a drift Nissan, comparing the G25-550 to the GTX3071, a size used on some S2000 turbo kits.
With this size turbo, your build isn't setting performance records or looking to win in a highly competitive class with exacting rules. Most S2000s, if they compete on a road course, compete in a class with a weight/hp rule.
That said, the first decision needs to be: how much time do you want to spend engineering and building it? While to some extent they represent decisions that made more sense 5 years ago, the kits from SOS and Ptuning (when available) are pretty complete and tuck the turbo down keeping underhood heat down while leaving the oil filter, battery, and fuse box in place. Most (all?) other tubular manifolds have heat and packaging issues. Many people on this forum have solved them and have gorgeous builds, but it goes back to the question: do you want to spend your time building it or driving it?
I'll try to rustle up some pics, but I'm running an SOS TS-Max kit with a GT3076R. Kind of tired of the stock turbo, and all the upgrade options in that Evo-style flange aren't too appealing. So I commissioned an Evo- style flange to 3" divided v-band adapter that I'll either bolt on to the SOS manifold or I'll cut the Evo flange off the SOS manifold and weld on the adapter. V-band seems to be a budding trend in turbine inlets, so I stuck with that. Downpipe shouldn't bee to difficult if it's IWG. Turbo placement and pipe routing will essentially be the same.
In any case, thanks for the info. Are the EFR Black series updates comparable to the Garrett G series update? Garrett seems to have made a big leap in turbo efficiency with the G series, they're like physically as big as the T25 (from my old DSM days) but flow an incredible amount. However the Black series lineup only seems like an incremental update from BW. Just trying to figure out if I should wait or just pull the trigger on the G25-660.
I'll try to rustle up some pics, but I'm running an SOS TS-Max kit with a GT3076R. Kind of tired of the stock turbo,.
It's hard to find any user info on that kit, and I don't mean to thread-derail. Have you posted a review of the kit anywhere? Any thoughts/opinions? How long have you been running the kit before you grew bored of it?
The latest turbos don't have twin-scroll V-band inlets. They all have v-band outlets. If you want twin-scroll you want a T4 divided.
The Evo inlet is a bit funky, divided at a diagonal. The SOS manifold has very short runs and no merge collector. It was designed to get twin-scroll with the best packaging before T4 twin scrolls were common. It minimizes heat in the engine compartment and keeps the oil filter stock. In contrast, the non-divided T3 EWG manifold from Full Race claims 65hp over a log manifold but puts lots of heat in the engine compartment and requires the oil filter to be relocated. It has appropriately sized runners and a merge collector. Note: The newer manifolds have replaced T3 with T2.5. A T3 housing is available for the G25 from ATP. Net: You will basically be making a new custom manifold.
The advantage of v-band is the ability to rotate to get things to fit and only dealing with one v-band bolt instead of 4 hard to get to flange bolts. If you go that direction, forget about a divided v-band inlet. Something Garrett played around with a dropped long ago. They lose the ability to rotate and TTBOMK are only available on the aftermarket for GT/GTX 30/35 turbos.
In the picture, clockwise from top left: SOS turbo manifold, turbine housing with Evo flange, turbine housing and mating flange for divided v-band, Full Race T3 ram's horn header with appropriate tubing lengths and merge collector.
The G25-660 comes with a T4 divided, internally wastegate turbine housing as an option. So you can feasibly make an adapter to go from the Evo flange to the T4 divided flange. Making the wastegate actuator fit however.... that'll be a challenge. Honestly, I don't think it's worth the effort to modify your current setup as you'll have to do a ton of custom fab work. You might as well just sell this kit and buy a new one. You could upgrade the turbo in your existing setup to a GTX3576R/GTX3582R if you're aiming for more power. Or GTX3071R for a bit more power and better response.
Note on divided v-band, the Garrett turbos that have been coming the V8 in the BMW M5/X5M/X6M since ~2008 are divided v-band. They are MGT2260 size turbos.
Was it established if this is an E85 or pump gas car, stock or prepped engine, boost level and resulting turbo size.
If the turbo and wastegate clear everything, with a new custom downpipe, this would allow an EFR or G25 swap with the SOS kit. If it is a low boost pump gas car, the G25 would probably spool faster, replacing a 3076 with a 2767 and newer technology. Their compressor maps are pretty similar. The 8474 EFR is one of their big frame turbos, and may or may not fit and would assume much more airflow (higher boost, more displacement, higher engine speeds) than a 3076.
If it is nothing more than an adapter and new downpipe plus a new $2000+ turbo. Note, while Garrett lists a divided T4 IWG housing, neither ATP nor Full Race list it. The BW EFR 7163 has it though. However the 7163 hasn't been updated to a black edition yet and its compressor map isn't friendly to pressure ratios less than 2.
If the turbo and wastegate clear everything, with a new custom downpipe, this would allow an EFR or G25 swap with the SOS kit.
That's a very BIG IF it clears everything I am highly doubtful. Look at the SOS setup and how very tightly the turbo is packaged against the engine block and engine mount.
That's a very BIG IF it clears everything I am highly doubtful. Look at the SOS setup and how very tightly the turbo is packaged against the engine block and engine mount.
Agreed, a bit IF. But the G25-660 and G25-550 should be smaller than the original GT3076 which already had a bulkier IWG on the turbine housing.
06-04-2019, 04:53 AM
Garrett G25-660 vs BW EFR?
I am highly doubtful. Look at the SOS setup and how very tightly the turbo is packaged against the engine block and engine mount.
