CourageOO7

Guys, I am sure most of you know the benefits of E85. Even so, I thought this was pretty informative. I am convinced...I'm in the process of tuning my car as it is so I'm switching over. Can anyone point me in the right direction to find fuel lines/fittings compatable with E85?

http://www.jaylenosgarage.com/video/...l?vidID=137216

CourageOO7

Here's a bit more information about the conversion. It appears the more modern fuel lines/tanks may not be as sensitive to the alcohol fuels as the older equipment was. I will post more information as I find it for those interested.
http://e85vehicles.com/converting-e85.htm

CourageOO7

Ok...so according to this guy:
http://ezinearticles.com/?E85:-It-Is-Possible&id=229519

We can get the fuel lines and stuff from Jegs or Summit Racing. He mentions in the article that your fuel pump should be compatible with E85 (ie. no rubber parts). Most of us use Walbro 255's.

Here's a thread about a guy who converted his WRX to run E85. He claims that modern OBDII cars are capable of running the stuff without too much of a hitch. Additionally, his car has a Walbro 255l/h fuel pump.

Here are the highlights:
what would be needed for a complete conversion kit to run 100% ethanol fuel


For full conversion to alcohol fuels the change list typically looks something like:


1. Go to an compatable fuel pump (non-sparking if intank design).
2. Replace fuel lines with alcohol compatable lines.
3. Possibly replace filter (???).
4. Replace injectors with large enough ones to feed proper fueling.
5. Replace injector/FPR o-rings with compatible o-rings... viton maybe?
6. Add a spark/flash suppressor to the fuel tank inlet tube.
7. Ensure the fuel tank material is completely compatable with alcohol.
8. Stop the stock ECU from freaking out due to changes in various emissions sensor readings.

With ethanol on the WRX, you only need (according to my current experience base) is numbers 4, and 8.

I would love to see if one of the ECU reflash vendors can get into the part of the ECU code to solve the evaporative emissions issue. I'm pretty sure the Evap emissions problem can be spoofed mechanically but just have not had time to look at it. If not the simple solution is to drop to a 60% blend. That would reduce consumption of oil by nearly 2/3's give you probably 1/2 the emissions you get with gasoline, and some where between 5% - 10% more power.

What about fuel system corrosion?
Corrosion does not appear to be an issue with modern OBDII cars. They are all certified by the manufactures to be safe to use on 10% ethanol fuel blends, and industry insiders say they are safe for much higher percentages. You don't install components that are "sorta safe" with a chemical, you put in a fuel hose etc. that is ethanol safe for concentrations well above what you expect to use. Not to mention that folks have been talking for years about raising the ethanol level to 20% or more.

Occasional use would be no problem at all based on my experience. I have never cut open the fuel filter (still have the OEM filter in place) I'll open it when I replace it. I want to put enough time on it to have conclusive evidence if there are problems.

The engine is not an issue with either, WI using a water alcohol mix or straight alcohol injection. In those systems alcohol and water are not used in significant quantity or for long duration. The Buick GN folks and lots of folks in the DSM crowd have done it for literally decades with no problems for the engine.

Many years ago there were studies that indicated engines that ran on alcohol ALONE as a fuel, had issues with lubrication and valve seat wear. Keep in mind, those studies were done a long time ago, when engine oils were much less sophisticated than they are now, and some engine manufactures in the 1940's,1950' and 1960's made stupid engineering decisions and did not use hard valve seat inserts like stellite in the cylinder heads. This resulted in valve seat recession problems if you did not have lead additives in the fuel to protect the valve seats.

What about oil contamination?
Modern lubricants, especially the synthetic oils are much much different than the oils used during those studies, and modern engines run at higher temperatures today which will quickly boil any traces of alcohol out of the oil.
In cold weather I run an 180 deg thermostat to assist quick warmup I have left it in during this past summer and so far the engine has no heating issues with the 180 thermostat on the E85 fuel.

Is Ethanol less corrosive than Methanol?
Methanol is much more corrosive than ethanol. It attacks certain soft metals that are not much used in modern fuel systems. Years ago, the carburators were made of un-anodized aluminum and if methanol fuel was used, you had major problems with electrolytic corrosion between the aluminum and copper components used in the fuel system, since they were in continous contact.

That sort of corrosion only occurs when you have a current path between the dissimilar metals AND, a conductive path through the fluid in the system.

In Brazil where they have run high ethanol fuels since 1939, they found that to convert older cars designed for gasoline, long before ethanol blends were common, needed several changes to convert the cars over. This led to changes in valve materials, piston rings choices, nickle plating of the fuel tanks etc.

Modern cars in the U.S. are designed for use with ethanol up to 10% concentration in the fuel. That has led to several changes in component materials over the last 30 years that the U.S. has used ethanol enhanced fuels. All modern fuel lines and such are designed with the expectation that some ethanol will be in the fuel.


My experiment is an intentional effort to push the envelope and see what happens. Over the last 2 years I have run high ethanol fuels ( normal pump fuel here in Colorado contains up to 10% ethanol anyway) for months at a time.

At mixtures below 33% by volume of alcohol ( about 39% E-85 by volume) I had absolutely no problems of any kind. At higher mixtures > 33% alcohol, I got a nuisance CEL for too lean which could be eliminated by added gasoline to the mix or as I have recently increased the injector size. (Increasing fuel pressure would also increase the effective size of the injectors).

At mixtures near 65% in my current setup I got a nuisance CEL for the evaporative emissions system, but the car runs very well on the high alcohol blend. The only issue with near 100% E-85, is the car starts a little harder in cold weather. When it gets very cold I drop the mixture to about 80% or so to solve that by adding about 2 gallons of gasoline to the tank of E-85.

I have done no oil analysis at this point, walbro 255l/h fuel pump and 550 injectors show no signs of problems to date.

Larry

Link to full thread: http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=803341

CourageOO7

More info:

Here are some comparisions of stoichmetric fuel mixtures for different fuel blends:
======== stoichmetric AFR ===== max power rich AFR
Gasoline ---------- 14.7:1 -------------------12.5
100% E-85 ------- 9.73-9.8:1 ------------- ~ 9:1 - 8:1
100% fuel ethanol - 9:1 ------------------- ~ 7.2:1

So, keep in mind that you're going to have to go significantly bigger with your injector choice on straight E85 than you would gasoline.

I know you guys at Infinite Speed are running an E85 S2000. Can we get details on your AFR's, fuel setup, and injector choice?

CourageOO7

More important information:

I know a lot of us are running the UEGO. Page 5 of the instructions found here:
UEGO Instruction Manual
Contains the tables that allow us to understand the Lamda outputs of the gauge when we convert from gas to E85.

CourageOO7

More good info:

Over two years later this guy has over 37k boosted miles on his WRX running E85 on the Walbro 255l/h fuel pump and your avg Joe fuel lines, fittings, and stock 550cc Sti injectors.

Run a Walbro pump --- to date we have seen no reported failures of them used normally *in real world usage with milages >10,000 miles. Mine was working fine with 37,000 miles on it if I recall correctly, and something like 5 years of use with E85 and high E85 fuel blends when I sent it in to Walbro for their study on reliablility with E85.

The NAPA EFI rubber fuel line seems to be fine (as any of the brand name lines of recent manufacture such as Goodyear etc.). O-rings we also have no reported failures on the OEM O-rings but there are several elastomers used for O-rings the fluoroelastomers are generally the best such a Viton -F, EPDM and similar compounds.

http://www.efunda.com/designstandard...one&SC=Ethanol
http://www.pspglobal.com/nfvitongrades.html

http://www.parker.com/o-ring/Literature/00-5700.pdf (see section VII compatibility tables)

(* Gary managed to kill one but he ran it continuously at 80+ psi to do it )

Larry

Good stuff!