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Looking for ideas (turbo vs supercharger)
After searching the site and reading a lot of different threads on the subject, I thought I would create my own.
I have been looking into different boost options for my 04 and am going back and fourth as far as what I am looking for, and was hoping you guys could help me make up my mind. Basically I want 300WHP+, still drivable, and dependable. Initially I was looking only at turbo systems because my other cars have all been turbo charged, but after reading through threads here and information on other sites, kits like the SoS supercharger started to gain my favor. The primary reason they appeal to me is because of the easy install, completeness of the kits, and their simplicity. This car isn't a race car, it's just my sporty weekend car that gets autocrossed/dragged sometimes for fun. I layed out a list of what I was looking for an it's something like this: 1) 300WHP to 350WHP 2) Simplistic (for maintenance/install) 3) Drivable/raceable (no dyno queen power bands) 4) Reliable 5) Slight upgrade headroom (to find the right amount of power) With these requirements I pretty much know that I won't be heading down the road of radical experimentation that I have with other cars in the past, so I need your guys input. What kind of kits would you recommend? For my needs should I be looking more at supercharger kits or turbo kits? Is there difference in power delivery different enough between the superchargers and the turbos to radically change the driving characteristics? |
I have not done very much research on superchargers, but I must say the greddy turbo kit sounds like the kit for you... Guys on here are makin over 300 whp and some are upgrading to bigger turbos ect to make even more power.... I have autcrossed the car with the turbo and its awesome.. tons of low end torque.....But eventually you might get sick of this kit like I am kinda starting to... Maybe inline pro but ull be spending more.... check out the ultimate greddy turbo thread for more info on it...
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I was in the same boat as you for a while, I decided to go SC. I then was in between kraftwerks and SOS. I went with the SOS kit, great power, looks almost OEM and can be upgraded for more power later
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Originally Posted by chad86,May 27 2009, 06:41 PM
I have not done very much research on superchargers, but I must say the greddy turbo kit sounds like the kit for you... Guys on here are makin over 300 whp and some are upgrading to bigger turbos ect to make even more power.... I have autcrossed the car with the turbo and its awesome.. tons of low end torque.....But eventually you might get sick of this kit like I am kinda starting to... Maybe inline pro but ull be spending more.... check out the ultimate greddy turbo thread for more info on it...
Maybe I can get in touch with some local guys with the kits so I can see them in person. I have seen them at SEMA and stuff, but I need to look them over again and maybe see if I can bribe some people in to taking me for a spin so I can see the driving behavior on them. |
As much as I am a fan of SOS, I would say go with kraftwerks, you get nearly the low end of a turbo plus the linearity and response of a SC...can't loose there, benefit of rotrex technology, whereas the SOS kit is simply another (albeit) more efficient centrifugal like the vortech and CT system(s), so you don't get a blend of both worlds...both sos and kw are upgradeable from 300-400whp though. I have driven greddy turbo s2ks and a kw s2k, came away impressed by both, but much more so by kw car, I have yet to drive a vortech/ct/sos sc s2k...only been in centrifugal cars of other makes and models...
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if your going to go turbo, its either... get a greddy and stay satisfied with about 300whp (dyno dynamic) cuz thats all you will get out of it. If you plan to get a better kit...inline pro...full race... be prepared to open your wallet but the potential amount of power you will make will be great.
Superchargers... if you want the low end grunt and a max of 380whp (dynopack) then get a KW s/c. KW maxes out at 10lbs of boost so keep that in mind. The sos kit so far can make about 18lbs i think... and can easily make 450+ (dynopack) you just won't get that little extra low-end torque that the kw provides but you will make more hp in the long run. Seriously do more searching..... because this topic has been discussed Soooo many times now, even if you want to make your own thread, it has been done... it has been discussed...and all you need to do is search MORE and MORE and MORE because all the info. is on this website. i don't even ask questions anymore... i just search for it and its there. this website has been around for 9 years and NINE years of research and posted threads about supercharging and turbocharging the s2000 has been discussed. do what you gotta do man but remember, its not just paying for s/c or turboing the car.... once you hit 300whp you will have to get a new clutch and engine managment and thats gonna be an additional 2 grand MINIMUM and thats if you get the good stuff... not some cheap crap. ...remember when thinking about saving money all your doing is delaying a problem that will HAVE TO BE solved later in life... its either go all-out with the costs now or deal with it again later because one-day.... YOU WILL BE BACK FOR MORE POWER!!! boost is addicting. it makes cigarettes or heroine look like a joke |
^^^ DeadZero you are 100% deadon lol ... Could not have put it better myself !!
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Originally Posted by DeadZero,May 27 2009, 10:48 PM
boost is addicting. it makes cigarettes or heroine look like a joke
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i've been boosting for years now....started with muscle cars then realized the potential of 4 bangers and turbo's... boost IS addicting..
This is my 2nd time turboing my s2000.... within a year lol.. first time put down 301whp and 198tq... this time.. SAME kit but different injectors, bigger exhaust and wideband, i put down 328 and 230tq.. let me tell you..any foo that says 300 isnt anything... their idiots....YOU MAY however get there and THEN it will Feel slow.. but its not. you jsut got used to it and thats where boost becomes addictive. this isnt my daily anymore... i have a 2002 maxima with the 3.5 vq motor so it has the pep and tq i like for daily... THEN... on the weekends... bwaahahaha... stepping into the s2k after not driving it for a whole week Really does the trick..you learn to appreciate it more. believe me. I'm planning on having the 2mm cometic HG coppersprayed slapped in a raise the boost... would like to see 400whp... but if you do it right... and do it right the first time.. it seriously saves you alot of money and headaches in the long run. this is a game that alot of folks cant afford to play... i've been blessed to where i can. but let me just say this... if your gonna do this... do this all the way.. there is NO in between. none... |
If your power goals are just 300-350 I would get the SOT roots blower. A lot more area under the torque curve than the SOS/Vortech/KW systems.
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Originally Posted by DeadZero,May 27 2009, 10:48 PM
if your going to go turbo, its either... get a greddy and stay satisfied with about 300whp (dyno dynamic) cuz thats all you will get out of it. If you plan to get a better kit...inline pro...full race... be prepared to open your wallet but the potential amount of power you will make will be great.
Superchargers... if you want the low end grunt and a max of 380whp (dynopack) then get a KW s/c. KW maxes out at 10lbs of boost so keep that in mind. The sos kit so far can make about 18lbs i think... and can easily make 450+ (dynopack) you just won't get that little extra low-end torque that the kw provides but you will make more hp in the long run. Seriously do more searching..... because this topic has been discussed Soooo many times now, even if you want to make your own thread, it has been done... it has been discussed...and all you need to do is search MORE and MORE and MORE because all the info. is on this website. i don't even ask questions anymore... i just search for it and its there. this website has been around for 9 years and NINE years of research and posted threads about supercharging and turbocharging the s2000 has been discussed. do what you gotta do man but remember, its not just paying for s/c or turboing the car.... once you hit 300whp you will have to get a new clutch and engine managment and thats gonna be an additional 2 grand MINIMUM and thats if you get the good stuff... not some cheap crap. ...remember when thinking about saving money all your doing is delaying a problem that will HAVE TO BE solved later in life... its either go all-out with the costs now or deal with it again later because one-day.... YOU WILL BE BACK FOR MORE POWER!!! boost is addicting. it makes cigarettes or heroine look like a joke What I am looking to learn from this thread is specifics of the kits involving my 5 points. Yes, I found some of that information in other threads, but most of that information was purely side effects of other discussions so it lacked details and broader considerations. Also, the other discussions are spanning many years and a lot of the information is out dated with modern knowledge from both experimentation and improved kit designs. Also, most of the information in those threads is much to the order of what you said as well as a lot of heresay and urban myths, etc. With this thread I am hoping more people can jump in with specific information revolving around my initial points. I have experience with boosted cars, but this car isn't my track car, and I'm not looking for dyno bragging rights. I'm looking to build this car into a perfectly balanced car, something more like I think it should have been out of the factory. |
SOT/SXM roots blower FTW :) for your power requirements, SPECIFICALLY DYNO QUEEN, this is the blower for you.
8psi http://h22civic.com/pictures/2005%20...-27-09-rpm.jpg 11psi before water injection http://www.superpimps.com/candymanjl...9/IMG_9081.jpg before you say, wait, you made less power wiht more boost, the second dyno is dyno dynamics uncorrected....and know has heart breaker dyno for a reason. this particular one reads about 10% low. but, notice the grunt midrange :) hit me up if you have any questions. |
[QUOTE=camuman,May 28 2009, 07:42 AM] SOT/SXM roots blower FTW :)
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Originally Posted by casperiv,May 28 2009, 10:47 AM
Dyno queen certainly isn't the goal, but I do like the nice even power curves on the charts. What supporting mods are you running to produce those numbers? How is the drivability. The power delivery certainly looks predictable and smooth, hows reliability/complication of the system?
anywho, to answer your questions. i have aem ems, berk header, 3" asura exhaust, water injection<not in any of those dynos>. bigger heat exchanger and extra fluid reservoir. that was for 11psi. blower is at top half of efficiency. if you bought from sxm and wanted bolt on, they ship with 550 injectors and eman ult plug and play ready to rock. you just bolt evertyhing on , its complete. i went with you tune kit cause i had aem ems and wanted mo powa. 315ish whp on 6psi. i made 350 with extra mods on 8psi. its a rippin ride. been very reliable. already have about 5k miles on the kit. not really complicated to install. directions are easy and make sense. little more involved then SOS kit, but nothing hard. |
Originally Posted by camuman,May 28 2009, 08:01 AM
first, lemme add, 400+whp go inline pro equal length mani, fullrace, mase engineering turbo kit with gt30r sized turbo
anywho, to answer your questions. i have aem ems, berk header, 3" asura exhaust, water injection<not in any of those dynos>. bigger heat exchanger and extra fluid reservoir. that was for 11psi. blower is at top half of efficiency. if you bought from sxm and wanted bolt on, they ship with 550 injectors and eman ult plug and play ready to rock. you just bolt evertyhing on , its complete. i went with you tune kit cause i had aem ems and wanted mo powa. 315ish whp on 6psi. i made 350 with extra mods on 8psi. its a rippin ride. been very reliable. already have about 5k miles on the kit. not really complicated to install. directions are easy and make sense. little more involved then SOS kit, but nothing hard. |
PM Mark (MugenRioS2K) for anything SOT related. Also website is www.staticxmotorsports.com
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Originally Posted by casperiv,May 27 2009, 02:04 PM
After searching the site and reading a lot of different threads on the subject, I thought I would create my own.
I have been looking into different boost options for my 04 and am going back and fourth as far as what I am looking for, and was hoping you guys could help me make up my mind. Basically I want 300WHP+, still drivable, and dependable. Initially I was looking only at turbo systems because my other cars have all been turbo charged, but after reading through threads here and information on other sites, kits like the SoS supercharger started to gain my favor. The primary reason they appeal to me is because of the easy install, completeness of the kits, and their simplicity. This car isn't a race car, it's just my sporty weekend car that gets autocrossed/dragged sometimes for fun. I layed out a list of what I was looking for an it's something like this: 1) 300WHP to 350WHP 2) Simplistic (for maintenance/install) 3) Drivable/raceable (no dyno queen power bands) 4) Reliable 5) Slight upgrade headroom (to find the right amount of power) With these requirements I pretty much know that I won't be heading down the road of radical experimentation that I have with other cars in the past, so I need your guys input. What kind of kits would you recommend? For my needs should I be looking more at supercharger kits or turbo kits? Is there difference in power delivery different enough between the superchargers and the turbos to radically change the driving characteristics? Vortech's New Self Contained Non-intercooled kit Ultimate Racing FMIC K-Pro w/ WB and MAP 650CC Injectors 255LP Walbro I am sure I will be crucified for mentioning it but the air to water IC has a long list of drawbacks and will not meet some of you criteria. The same can be said about the FMU or piggy back fuel system offered by them and all other SC manufacturers. There are other options like Kraftwerks and the Whipple but they do not fit what you are asking for. If you go turbo there is only one choice, Greddy but there is no upgrades without replacing the turbo. |
Originally Posted by Kermdaddy,May 28 2009, 09:49 AM
PM Mark (MugenRioS2K) for anything SOT related. Also website is www.staticxmotorsports.com
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[QUOTE=dsddcd,May 28 2009, 12:53 PM] Based on your post I would recommend cutting your teeth on the below kit.
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Originally Posted by casperiv,May 27 2009, 05:04 PM
I layed out a list of what I was looking for an it's something like this:
1) 300WHP to 350WHP 2) Simplistic (for maintenance/install) 3) Drivable/raceable (no dyno queen power bands) 4) Reliable 5) Slight upgrade headroom (to find the right amount of power) 1) base kit is $5k, for ap2 its ~315 hp 2) sounds like the easiest installation for any SC on the market 3) since its centrifugal all the power is at the top of the RPMs, so stock power down low, power boost up top when you want it, kind of like how it came from the factory 4) simple usually correlates well with reliable. owners of the SOS can comment here 5) check out their website, they have lots of upgradeable parts for their kit |
[QUOTE=michaelnyden,May 27 2009, 08:34 PM] As much as I am a fan of SOS, I would say go with kraftwerks, you get nearly the low end of a turbo plus the linearity and response of a SC...can't loose there, benefit of rotrex technology, whereas the SOS kit is simply another (albeit) more efficient centrifugal like the vortech and CT system(s), so you don't get a blend of both worlds...both sos and kw are upgradeable from 300-400whp though.
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I just did a ton of research into the SOT/SXM kit...looks like the best kit to get if you don't desire more than 350whp...especially if you are considering autocross or road racing...if you are doing freeway pulls and highway racing, then centrifugals should be fine, and if interested in a street kit for everyday use but want a little more than 350whp, you have the kraftwerks. If you want more than 400whp, obviously go with turbo, but do not do this for road racing, the turbo s2k's generate too much heat according to Sean Church to be a reliable track car.
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Originally Posted by AndyFloyd,May 28 2009, 02:09 PM
I saw a dyno sheet where they compared a rotrex to a centrifical SC ( SOS, Vortec ) and the rotrex wasnt very far ahead. A somewhat small GT28-GT30 series turbo will pull all over any centrifical sc ( kraftwerks rotrex included ) down low.
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I love the torque and power band for the whipple but it is more complicated than a simple Air to Air centrifugal with self contained oiling system. As an engineer I look for the simplest design that can be made. By adding an air to water, there are advantages but the chances for catestrophic failure are higher.
As for my choise on superchargers I prefere a Screw, then Roots, Rotex, and finaly Centrifugal. However, I do not like the kit from StaicX b/c of the added intallation complexity as compaired to a simple centrifugal. (Sorry Mark) The single belt on the Kraftwerks scares me (search Snake Charmer) and I do not like haveing the additional oil cooler. So the only reamining choises are SOS and Vortech. The Vortech system was completley designed and built by them so they are a one point source. Their kit comes with their Supercooler dual pass radiator which is an option for the SOS as well as several more downsides. I will say that I was not aware that the Vortech kit did not have standard availibility to non intercooled so I would would change my first post with the following. Vortech's Satin Tuner Kit K-Pro w/ WB and MAP 650CC Injectors 255LP Walbro |
Originally Posted by suprmonky73,May 28 2009, 11:05 AM
SOS sounds good for you.
1) base kit is $5k, for ap2 its ~315 hp 2) sounds like the easiest installation for any SC on the market 3) since its centrifugal all the power is at the top of the RPMs, so stock power down low, power boost up top when you want it, kind of like how it came from the factory 4) simple usually correlates well with reliable. owners of the SOS can comment here 5) check out their website, they have lots of upgradeable parts for their kit |
Originally Posted by camuman,May 28 2009, 11:45 AM
funny you mention this. i was serious about a kw kit when they came out. then i saw VT and CT kits at same boost with some tuning on them, power down low was within like 5hpish, maybe 10 at most. basically, the kw has a full tune with it, but in the form of a flash. with vt or ct, you need to get it tuned. this is what stopped me from buying a kw kit. i alsmost bought a used vt with aftercoooler, since you can pick those up relatively cheap. sot caught me cause of the power everywhere.
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Does SuperCharger has a high pitch whine noise to it? I've been thinking S/C or Turbo as well... Really prefer the sound of turbo... and the crazyness about it...
With the S/C do you still feel the rush at the top end of the RPM??? I've never driven a S/C car so that's why i'm asking the question. |
With a supoerhcarger u still get that vtec feeling (top end from what I've read) and with a turbo ( depending on how big) might sppol quick like my greddy kit and give more of a steady power feeling... bigger turbos= slower spooling time.....
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Originally Posted by chad86,May 29 2009, 05:42 PM
With a supoerhcarger u still get that vtec feeling (top end from what I've read) and with a turbo ( depending on how big) might sppol quick like my greddy kit and give more of a steady power feeling... bigger turbos= slower spooling time.....
In terms of pure max HP: Turbos > Centrifugal > Roots If you're not looking to max out HP a SC could make sense for you. Roots will be good for driving around town whereas the Centrifugal will give you the kick in the pants on the highway. |
so does the rotrex split the difference between the centrifugal and roots type?
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Originally Posted by michaelnyden,May 29 2009, 10:10 PM
so does the rotrex split the difference between the centrifugal and roots type?
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[QUOTE=camuman,May 28 2009, 07:42 AM] before you say, wait, you made less power wiht more boost, the second dyno is dyno dynamics uncorrected....and know has heart breaker dyno for a reason.
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This is a great thread - thanks for the replies, because I'm struggling with a similar set of desires. Looking for:
- Low end torque around town (SOT, Greddy) - Emissions legal in metro Atlanta (Greddy, SOS, KW) - 350-370whp from my AP1 for the occasional mountain run (KW, SOS) They're all great kits, but I haven't yet found the perfect combination. I would lean toward SOT/roots if it can be tuned a bit stronger and if I can pass emissions with it. I got tired of staring at so many different dyno charts, so I manually entered data points into Excel to compare the different options for an AP2. (Would prefer to do this for AP1 but can't find the data.) This is definitely not scientific or accurate, but it gave me a general idea of where each kit made torque. Poorly represented below: Kraftwerks High Boost (rotrex), Static X / Stage One Tuning MP62 tuned to 8lb (roots), Greddy (turbo), Science of Speed aftercooled (centrifugal). http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3363/...fb22ea.jpg?v=0 |
ap1 and ap2 won't be much different
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Originally Posted by bagherra,May 30 2009, 02:57 AM
Yes. It favors high-rpm boost unlike roots, but does have more low end grunt than a centrifugal. It also tends to be the quietest of the three. It is also a little limited in top HP potential when compared with a centrifugal. It terms of peak HP, it would be in between centrifugal and roots. More peak potential than roots, but less than centrifugal.
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Originally Posted by dsddcd,May 31 2009, 08:13 PM
All the curves I have plotted show the same power linear curve for the Vortech/Paxton and the Rotrex there where just shifts up or down?
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Originally Posted by Torque Obsessed,May 31 2009, 03:22 PM
This is a great thread - thanks for the replies, because I'm struggling with a similar set of desires. Looking for:
- Low end torque around town (SOT, Greddy) - Emissions legal in metro Atlanta (Greddy, SOS, KW) - 350-370whp from my AP1 for the occasional mountain run (KW, SOS) They're all great kits, but I haven't yet found the perfect combination. I would lean toward SOT/roots if it can be tuned a bit stronger and if I can pass emissions with it. I got tired of staring at so many different dyno charts, so I manually entered data points into Excel to compare the different options for an AP2. (Would prefer to do this for AP1 but can't find the data.) This is definitely not scientific or accurate, but it gave me a general idea of where each kit made torque. Poorly represented below: Kraftwerks High Boost (rotrex), Static X / Stage One Tuning MP62 tuned to 8lb (roots), Greddy (turbo), Science of Speed aftercooled (centrifugal). http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3363/...fb22ea.jpg?v=0 |
the only kits i know that are carb legal, which i would then consider emmissions legal, are greddy and i think vortech and comptech.
sot is not carb legal, but if they dont do inspection other then tail pipe sinffer, i beleive any one of these kits could pass. you just need to setup a real nice idle map and have a cat. carb approval is long and expensive process. |
I think he meant it isn't carb certified or have a carb oe #...the only ones with such are the greddy kit and the kw kit is pending I believe...
Unfortunately in California, anything without a carb oe # fails you instantly. With cool smog guys getting less and less common cause they run undercover stings and they get fined hugely if they pass modified cars...this is so childish, I'd rather my tax payer dollars go more towards undercover drug stings, etc...I could care less if a smog guy is letting a guys hobby (and his hard earned money) and an intake (which doesn't make the car pollute anymore) pass. I know they draw this line on everything cause it's a slippery slope, but seriously the miniscule amount of automobiles that are modified to the point that they pollute more is not a significant pollution concern and hence they should be aiming their efforts elsewhere. Society basically hates this hobby today, in the 50's modifying cars was a national past time and was revered as an integral part of our youth culture. Modifying cars is now negative cultural capital. That's my rant for the day, sorry. Back to the topic. |
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