No one builds a proper turbo kit for the S2K .... prove me wrong! :-)
#1
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No one builds a proper turbo kit for the S2K .... prove me wrong! :-)
S2Ki.....
Warning:
This topic is not to put down any sort of manufacture, vendor or company AT ALL! This topic is mearly here to discuss the differences between all turbo kits and what a properly built turbo kit should consist of. I like to keep all threads based on FACTS and not "hear-say" so if you have more data of any sort along the way, please.... contribute for the benefit of the community.
Premise:
I would venture to say to all of you that no one builds a proper turbo kit at all for the S2000. There is always a comprimise, always a fault some where and too much "hear-say" on what works and what doesn't.
Background:
What is a proper turbo kit?
If it had to be built, it would be short runner, tubular and bottom mount. Shorter than the PTuning so you dont have to re-work the engine mount (but even this is not a big deal), less turn's the better! Oil drain should not contain a pump to drain the oil properly without tapping the pan. The turbo should be something that matches the motor. Now... there is a lot of controversy here. Some people would say that a GT3071R is perfect for street while someone elses opinion of a GT4088R is perfect and you're "only one gear away from having boost" but at the end of the day, 90%+ of the S2000 owners want a usable powerband. When you have kits like the Kraftwerks Supercharger kit that literally takes the peak horsepower you would have made N/A and brings it down to 4k (shifting the powerband left) then you get a driver that loves the feeling of a usable power band at all gear exchanges and rpms. Something predictable and manageable. It's all about a proper power band!
Manifold:
Too many manifolds out there are long with twisties trying to put the turbo in front of the motor and out of the way. This would work if you matched up the runners to the right size (equal length) and actually braced the manifold to avoid any cracking. Oh... and stop coating stainless! Do you see stainless coated on submarines that are nuclear? hmm.... wonder why. I'll get into that later.
While v-band connections with Tial housing are awesome, a properly divided manifold is going to be best for avoiding any interference from other cylinders which the F20 flows a lot! So a properly divided manifold in a T4 Twin-scroll configuration is going to be best, this is why OEM manufactures do this, this is why FULL RACE does this, this why F1 turbo motors are going to be doing this. I can elaborate more on why this is ideal. I'm sure FULL RACE Geoff can do a better job than me considering it's his life's work.
Oil Return:
Can't tap the oil pan? really guys? Do it once and do it right. You add an oil pump to scavenge all of the oil and while it may work and tons of people will say, "never had one fail and even if it did.... it's under warranty for a billion hours or some shit" uh no..... it's just another part that can fail, plain and simple. Tap the pan properly and you wont have an issue for life.
Turbo:
This can certainly spark a fire in an ant's nest talking about what turbo is best and why. I actually will not go that route, at least, not yet. But anything with a flow map can be trusted. These precision turbo's that list nothing about a flow map other than, max power it's rated for and supposed flow rate is not enough for me. Granted.... I personally run one myself just cause i get a riduclous deal on them, it doesnt mean i'm happy about it. It was my budget talking more than anything.
A proper turbo would be such things as a Borg Warner EFR with internal twin-scroll wastegate. This will allow for proper modulation of exhaust pressure and keeping the system compact without excess things to go wrong. But to take it to the next level and this is next to un-heard of in the S2Ki world which I could rave on about for days but a Sound Performance quick-spool valve would certainly help a huge ton in getting power before vtec engagement. Reliability, power and taking an entire powerband and shifting it left on the dyno graph is what it does best. It's been proven on daily driver Supra's and it's been done in the diesel world for years.
Final:
In conclusion.... I think that not a single turbo kit manufacture meets these expectations on the S2000 and not only that, on several different chassis's. There are many different theories, things people have heard, things that people have done in the past that may go against this completely. But when were talking turbo kit manufacturing.... you either do it the right way with proven results or not at all and just cause it works right based on your "opinion" doesn't make it so. Use F1 for example on turbo fundementals, just reading up on the 80's when they did turbo... you would learn wonders.
Again please.... check your ego at the door and lets make this a fun thread on whats right. Whats wrong. What works and what doesn't.
Thank you!
Warning:
This topic is not to put down any sort of manufacture, vendor or company AT ALL! This topic is mearly here to discuss the differences between all turbo kits and what a properly built turbo kit should consist of. I like to keep all threads based on FACTS and not "hear-say" so if you have more data of any sort along the way, please.... contribute for the benefit of the community.
Premise:
I would venture to say to all of you that no one builds a proper turbo kit at all for the S2000. There is always a comprimise, always a fault some where and too much "hear-say" on what works and what doesn't.
Background:
What is a proper turbo kit?
If it had to be built, it would be short runner, tubular and bottom mount. Shorter than the PTuning so you dont have to re-work the engine mount (but even this is not a big deal), less turn's the better! Oil drain should not contain a pump to drain the oil properly without tapping the pan. The turbo should be something that matches the motor. Now... there is a lot of controversy here. Some people would say that a GT3071R is perfect for street while someone elses opinion of a GT4088R is perfect and you're "only one gear away from having boost" but at the end of the day, 90%+ of the S2000 owners want a usable powerband. When you have kits like the Kraftwerks Supercharger kit that literally takes the peak horsepower you would have made N/A and brings it down to 4k (shifting the powerband left) then you get a driver that loves the feeling of a usable power band at all gear exchanges and rpms. Something predictable and manageable. It's all about a proper power band!
Manifold:
Too many manifolds out there are long with twisties trying to put the turbo in front of the motor and out of the way. This would work if you matched up the runners to the right size (equal length) and actually braced the manifold to avoid any cracking. Oh... and stop coating stainless! Do you see stainless coated on submarines that are nuclear? hmm.... wonder why. I'll get into that later.
While v-band connections with Tial housing are awesome, a properly divided manifold is going to be best for avoiding any interference from other cylinders which the F20 flows a lot! So a properly divided manifold in a T4 Twin-scroll configuration is going to be best, this is why OEM manufactures do this, this is why FULL RACE does this, this why F1 turbo motors are going to be doing this. I can elaborate more on why this is ideal. I'm sure FULL RACE Geoff can do a better job than me considering it's his life's work.
Oil Return:
Can't tap the oil pan? really guys? Do it once and do it right. You add an oil pump to scavenge all of the oil and while it may work and tons of people will say, "never had one fail and even if it did.... it's under warranty for a billion hours or some shit" uh no..... it's just another part that can fail, plain and simple. Tap the pan properly and you wont have an issue for life.
Turbo:
This can certainly spark a fire in an ant's nest talking about what turbo is best and why. I actually will not go that route, at least, not yet. But anything with a flow map can be trusted. These precision turbo's that list nothing about a flow map other than, max power it's rated for and supposed flow rate is not enough for me. Granted.... I personally run one myself just cause i get a riduclous deal on them, it doesnt mean i'm happy about it. It was my budget talking more than anything.
A proper turbo would be such things as a Borg Warner EFR with internal twin-scroll wastegate. This will allow for proper modulation of exhaust pressure and keeping the system compact without excess things to go wrong. But to take it to the next level and this is next to un-heard of in the S2Ki world which I could rave on about for days but a Sound Performance quick-spool valve would certainly help a huge ton in getting power before vtec engagement. Reliability, power and taking an entire powerband and shifting it left on the dyno graph is what it does best. It's been proven on daily driver Supra's and it's been done in the diesel world for years.
Final:
In conclusion.... I think that not a single turbo kit manufacture meets these expectations on the S2000 and not only that, on several different chassis's. There are many different theories, things people have heard, things that people have done in the past that may go against this completely. But when were talking turbo kit manufacturing.... you either do it the right way with proven results or not at all and just cause it works right based on your "opinion" doesn't make it so. Use F1 for example on turbo fundementals, just reading up on the 80's when they did turbo... you would learn wonders.
Again please.... check your ego at the door and lets make this a fun thread on whats right. Whats wrong. What works and what doesn't.
Thank you!
#2
if i were to do my turbo setup over again i would get the full-race t4 twin scroll manifold for internal wastegate and run the borg warner efr 7670 with internal wastegate with the t4 .92 ar divided turbine housing.
That would be the perfect setup.
That would be the perfect setup.
#3
Registered User
I think you summed it up pretty well... to add:
Problem #1 is the HUGE RPM range the turbo must be efficient in. It has been a problem for Hondas since the GSR- do you put in a small, quick spool for daily driving, or a large, hi-flow for high RPM? Most people choose the latter for VTEC power, with very little below 5000 RPM. Didn't the original Supra have two turbos inline? How many people have plotted their RPM/boost curve on a compressor map to compare turbos? Why not?
Problem #2 is space- or lack of it. There isn't a whole lot of room to play with without a ton of 'one-way' work to gut the underhood of your car (battery re-location, oil filter, fuse box, etc) and I think most are not willing to make the jump, esp in a street car that may need to be sold one day.
Problem #3 Boost limit on pump gas. Even if you manage the above, without 110 or E85 or meth, how much boost can you run? 12 lbs? 14? How much more power will you get by the setup you propose? Would it be worth it? My point is here- it depends on what you are going for- drag car? street beast/road car? There is a point of diminishing returns when the cost starts to add up, even more so when you don't do it yourself... so if 90% of the answer is $10K, and 100% is $15K how can that be competitive?
You really hit the nail on the head with the turbo/manifold: short, bottom mount, divided with internal wastegate. Where are they?
And BTW, the coating on the stainless is for reducing heat transfer to the engine bay- the same reason my downpipe is wrapped. Stuff melts. Interested in your take on this.
Excellent points you make...
Problem #1 is the HUGE RPM range the turbo must be efficient in. It has been a problem for Hondas since the GSR- do you put in a small, quick spool for daily driving, or a large, hi-flow for high RPM? Most people choose the latter for VTEC power, with very little below 5000 RPM. Didn't the original Supra have two turbos inline? How many people have plotted their RPM/boost curve on a compressor map to compare turbos? Why not?
Problem #2 is space- or lack of it. There isn't a whole lot of room to play with without a ton of 'one-way' work to gut the underhood of your car (battery re-location, oil filter, fuse box, etc) and I think most are not willing to make the jump, esp in a street car that may need to be sold one day.
Problem #3 Boost limit on pump gas. Even if you manage the above, without 110 or E85 or meth, how much boost can you run? 12 lbs? 14? How much more power will you get by the setup you propose? Would it be worth it? My point is here- it depends on what you are going for- drag car? street beast/road car? There is a point of diminishing returns when the cost starts to add up, even more so when you don't do it yourself... so if 90% of the answer is $10K, and 100% is $15K how can that be competitive?
You really hit the nail on the head with the turbo/manifold: short, bottom mount, divided with internal wastegate. Where are they?
And BTW, the coating on the stainless is for reducing heat transfer to the engine bay- the same reason my downpipe is wrapped. Stuff melts. Interested in your take on this.
Excellent points you make...
#5
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Interesting topic... I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that TH might have something up their sleeves that they might be pulling out soon...this is just a preemptive topic to raise some curiosity.
I will agree with your premise, I also feel that major kit building companies are falling short in a few certain areas.
background: It appears that you are getting at that while most major companies can make a kit that can produce 500whp+ quite easily and it is a load of fun, most people just want a fun street driven reliable vehicle. I agree with that and think that you are right. So Im assuming this discussion will be about what it takes to make a great street driven, possibly road course type kit.
Manifold: I dont understand what a nuclear submarine has to do with coating stainless. Most nuclear subs arent dealing with 1000+ degrees. But I will say that most manifolds are too complicated and it seems a smaller simpler design would be much more desirable for sub 550whp vehicles. Now I do agree that a divided design could generate the best flow, I dont think its needed unless you would be pushing for the ultimate track setup and where every rpm you can gain in spool is needed. Just a thought, the engines honda uses for indy on their efr setups are housings.
I also dont think sch10/sch40 is the most ideal option either to build a manifold out of.
Oil Return: Correct, at least tap the pan. The timing cover is best though.
Turbo: The EFR Turbo is ideal for a simple setup with everything built on to it. It saves tons of money when you factor in wastegates, boost solenoid, and bov. But good luck finding one right now. Ive been waiting forever to get a 7670. I like the idea of a quick spool valve.
Couple other things to add:
Heat: Turbos create a lot of heat. The problem with a bottom mount is it places the turbo exhaust housing right about the mount. You either have to buy blankets that protect, build a heat shield, or a mixture of booth. Topmount manifolds still put heat against the mount, it also puts heat on the battery, ac lines, and fusebox. Side-mounts help deal with the heat, but then you are dealing with weight and vibration causing the manifold to crack, plus lots of excess piping. OEM manufactures build heatshield for their vehicles, I think manifold companies should also.
Vibrations: Sch10/sch40 have to be welded and purged correctly. If you don't, you run the risk of the steel cracking on the welds. This is usually due to the mixture of heat and vibrations and weight. People have tried bracing and Ive seen it work 50/50. But it usually looks like crap.
Conclusion: In the turbo manifold world it seems like you can only get power or reliability. Its very hard and expensive to get both. I think their are some alternatives out there that havent been tried on the s2000 yet.
I will agree with your premise, I also feel that major kit building companies are falling short in a few certain areas.
background: It appears that you are getting at that while most major companies can make a kit that can produce 500whp+ quite easily and it is a load of fun, most people just want a fun street driven reliable vehicle. I agree with that and think that you are right. So Im assuming this discussion will be about what it takes to make a great street driven, possibly road course type kit.
Manifold: I dont understand what a nuclear submarine has to do with coating stainless. Most nuclear subs arent dealing with 1000+ degrees. But I will say that most manifolds are too complicated and it seems a smaller simpler design would be much more desirable for sub 550whp vehicles. Now I do agree that a divided design could generate the best flow, I dont think its needed unless you would be pushing for the ultimate track setup and where every rpm you can gain in spool is needed. Just a thought, the engines honda uses for indy on their efr setups are housings.
I also dont think sch10/sch40 is the most ideal option either to build a manifold out of.
Oil Return: Correct, at least tap the pan. The timing cover is best though.
Turbo: The EFR Turbo is ideal for a simple setup with everything built on to it. It saves tons of money when you factor in wastegates, boost solenoid, and bov. But good luck finding one right now. Ive been waiting forever to get a 7670. I like the idea of a quick spool valve.
Couple other things to add:
Heat: Turbos create a lot of heat. The problem with a bottom mount is it places the turbo exhaust housing right about the mount. You either have to buy blankets that protect, build a heat shield, or a mixture of booth. Topmount manifolds still put heat against the mount, it also puts heat on the battery, ac lines, and fusebox. Side-mounts help deal with the heat, but then you are dealing with weight and vibration causing the manifold to crack, plus lots of excess piping. OEM manufactures build heatshield for their vehicles, I think manifold companies should also.
Vibrations: Sch10/sch40 have to be welded and purged correctly. If you don't, you run the risk of the steel cracking on the welds. This is usually due to the mixture of heat and vibrations and weight. People have tried bracing and Ive seen it work 50/50. But it usually looks like crap.
Conclusion: In the turbo manifold world it seems like you can only get power or reliability. Its very hard and expensive to get both. I think their are some alternatives out there that havent been tried on the s2000 yet.
#6
aaahhhh what a topic....
As Ben mentioned i feel this is a tactical chess move on THM's part to boil the waters of the interwebz before the release of a manifold package for our community, but ill bite and add my .02
"Too many manifolds out there are long with twisties trying to put the turbo in front of the motor and out of the way. This would work if you matched up the runners to the right size (equal length)"
This statement is not fully correct, you can have equal length runners all day long, but equal length does not mean equal flow. If you were to take 2 runners, and one manifold runner was 8" long and one had 3 "s" shaped bends in it, and another straight 8" runner, the straight one will flow more than that of the curved runner. The shortest point from A to B or head flange to turbine inlet flange in this case will always be straight line, flow like anything will take the path of least resistance.
"If it had to be built, it would be short runner, tubular and bottom mount."
The short runner is also a hit or miss idea in my opinion. They perform similar to a log manifold from what ive seen, the short runner will not carry enough volume to allow the head to breathe like it should. The long runners (when done in smaller tube size like 1.25") will help increase exhaust gas velocity, just like the V8 guys do when they install "long tube" headers. This velocity can decrease "spool" times, and when paired in a divided turbine setup the gains are exponential. Full-Race did this with thier design (after many others did it. Full Race didnt pioneer or design "twin scroll (which "twin scroll" isnt even the correct term, its divided) it has been around for a long time, they just turned it into a marketing tool, and it works.... and look, Mr. Bales seems to be going just fine without a short runner setup, the fastest S2K in the world (Red Star) is on a "long tube" sidewinder manifold. I guess those dont work that good tho....
Turbo system companies arent making the issue for the consumer, the consumer is ill advised on what the best setup for his/her vehicle would be. Look at guys all over the internet running 67+mm turbos looking for 400whp, and they wonder why the have "mad lag yo!" Guys want the turbo that looks big and badass when they pop the hood, even if there is a better more effective option.There are a series of open ended question that should be asked to a perspective buyer that would help make the most effiecent possible setups to that specific customers needs.
"What is the over all goals for this vehicle?"
Do you want a auto-x car, time attack, drift, drag street, dyno queen, highway monster, Supra killer, bike killer, what? Everyone of those would utilize a different turbo...
"What kind of price range do you have in mind"
That is a huge factor in what turbo to use for the specific application, PTE has some of the cheapest offerings (and quality IMHO) and thats why we see everyone and thier brother using them, albeit they make great power, they just are better suited as a paper weight as they will need a rebuild in short time.
This topic is great, and you are going to see opinions all over the map, but there is alot into making the ideal setup, what works for one guy will not work for the next, and its not the companys fault most of the time....
As Ben mentioned i feel this is a tactical chess move on THM's part to boil the waters of the interwebz before the release of a manifold package for our community, but ill bite and add my .02
"Too many manifolds out there are long with twisties trying to put the turbo in front of the motor and out of the way. This would work if you matched up the runners to the right size (equal length)"
This statement is not fully correct, you can have equal length runners all day long, but equal length does not mean equal flow. If you were to take 2 runners, and one manifold runner was 8" long and one had 3 "s" shaped bends in it, and another straight 8" runner, the straight one will flow more than that of the curved runner. The shortest point from A to B or head flange to turbine inlet flange in this case will always be straight line, flow like anything will take the path of least resistance.
"If it had to be built, it would be short runner, tubular and bottom mount."
The short runner is also a hit or miss idea in my opinion. They perform similar to a log manifold from what ive seen, the short runner will not carry enough volume to allow the head to breathe like it should. The long runners (when done in smaller tube size like 1.25") will help increase exhaust gas velocity, just like the V8 guys do when they install "long tube" headers. This velocity can decrease "spool" times, and when paired in a divided turbine setup the gains are exponential. Full-Race did this with thier design (after many others did it. Full Race didnt pioneer or design "twin scroll (which "twin scroll" isnt even the correct term, its divided) it has been around for a long time, they just turned it into a marketing tool, and it works.... and look, Mr. Bales seems to be going just fine without a short runner setup, the fastest S2K in the world (Red Star) is on a "long tube" sidewinder manifold. I guess those dont work that good tho....
Turbo system companies arent making the issue for the consumer, the consumer is ill advised on what the best setup for his/her vehicle would be. Look at guys all over the internet running 67+mm turbos looking for 400whp, and they wonder why the have "mad lag yo!" Guys want the turbo that looks big and badass when they pop the hood, even if there is a better more effective option.There are a series of open ended question that should be asked to a perspective buyer that would help make the most effiecent possible setups to that specific customers needs.
"What is the over all goals for this vehicle?"
Do you want a auto-x car, time attack, drift, drag street, dyno queen, highway monster, Supra killer, bike killer, what? Everyone of those would utilize a different turbo...
"What kind of price range do you have in mind"
That is a huge factor in what turbo to use for the specific application, PTE has some of the cheapest offerings (and quality IMHO) and thats why we see everyone and thier brother using them, albeit they make great power, they just are better suited as a paper weight as they will need a rebuild in short time.
This topic is great, and you are going to see opinions all over the map, but there is alot into making the ideal setup, what works for one guy will not work for the next, and its not the companys fault most of the time....
#7
I wish I knew all the ins and outs of the turbo system design details to debate in this thread. My only exposure to the science was in thermodynamics 1 (isentropic efficiency and what not)... How do I get on the same plane as you guys?
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#8
Personally I'd love something like a greddy kit, but just a larger turbo able to make ~400whp. While an external wastegate is better for power, especially being able to dump to atmosphere, I also know how loud it is and don't need to wake the dead when hitting WOT and full boost either. A t3/t4 is plenty big for an s2k to accomodate decent spool and not run out of breath on the top end.
#9
Registered User
You can't brave a pipe manifold, it does more harm than good. I run a 16 gauge tube manifold with a 80mm turbo on it with no problems. All these pipe manifolds are just bandaids for not knowing how to build a proper manifold. Yes they work because some shops know how to weld pipe and purge. But I'll take a 5lb manifd over a 40lb one any day.
#10
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+1^bingo
It's something I noticed at Sema. All the aftermarket companies on imports ran pipe. In the ford booth and in the domestics I noticed they all ran 321 ss tubing on their manifolds with double slip joints to prevent stress and cracking.
It's something I noticed at Sema. All the aftermarket companies on imports ran pipe. In the ford booth and in the domestics I noticed they all ran 321 ss tubing on their manifolds with double slip joints to prevent stress and cracking.