Possible Problem?!?
 

Hey guys I have a slight problem. I was pulling my coils and plugs out to just do a routine inspection when I noticed one of my coils and the plug tube were covered in rust. I cannot figure out how I'm getting water inside the spark plug tube. The car is not running bad, or making any weird noises in any way. I pulled the valve cover off and there is no water/ coolant in the oil. There was some kind of gel around the seal for the spark plug tubes that smelled like E-85. I am running E-85 on my car and I know that the fuel starts to mix with oil, but the oil has only been in the car for about 500 miles. Any way I took a ton of pictures, maybe someone else has had this happen to them. Any help will be greatly appreciated!! :tipwink:

Here you can see the gel substance around the coil tube seal.

http://i967.photobucket.com/albums/a...-23-52_862.jpg
http://i967.photobucket.com/albums/a...-24-04_343.jpg
http://i967.photobucket.com/albums/a...3-24-11_47.jpg

Here you can kinda see the rust all along the wall of the tubes. Mostly in cylinder #3, but a little in cylinder #4.

http://i967.photobucket.com/albums/a...3-24-19_63.jpg
http://i967.photobucket.com/albums/a...-24-55_298.jpg
http://i967.photobucket.com/albums/a...-25-11_198.jpg

Here is a shot of all of the coils in cylinder order. Starting from the left Cylinders #4, #3, #2, & #1.

http://i967.photobucket.com/albums/a...-25-50_620.jpg

Same order on the plugs. Notice how cylinder #3 has rust at the base of the porcelain part of the plug.

http://i967.photobucket.com/albums/a...-26-10_630.jpg

Same order again.

http://i967.photobucket.com/albums/a...-26-39_869.jpg
http://i967.photobucket.com/albums/a...3-26-50_49.jpg
http://i967.photobucket.com/albums/a...3-26-55_10.jpg
http://i967.photobucket.com/albums/a...-26-59_442.jpg
http://i967.photobucket.com/albums/a...-27-08_937.jpg

Removed the valve cover and inspected for any signs of a blown head gasket or other damage.

http://i967.photobucket.com/albums/a...-43-29_227.jpg
http://i967.photobucket.com/albums/a...-43-34_799.jpg
http://i967.photobucket.com/albums/a...-43-52_396.jpg

I also have a bore scope camera that allows me to look down into the cylinders. When I looked down into the cylinders there didn't seem to be any cylinder scoring, or any head gasket damage. Can anyone tell me why this happened??

Was that plug loose. I see this all the time on fords with loose plugs.

No the plug was tight. That was the first thing that I checked! :ponder:

The seal around the coils is probably trashed?

Condensation perhaps? Consider that the rust is pretty far up the tube, I don't expect it was that full of water but condensation on the walls would certainly give that situation.

did you tighten down your coils properly?

That said, it almost looks like valve train parts have water in em too by those pics..... I hope I'm just not seeing it clearly.

do you let the car sit extended periods of time?

The Spark plug tube seals are brand new. I replaced the valve cover gasket and seals together. I could see it possibly being condensation, but where did it come from? It is hot as f@%k here, humidity would be a much more likely scenario.

The coils were properly tightened, but I am not 100% positive the seals on the coils are doing their job. (Original coils with 108k miles) The spark plug tube did not have any standing water in it whatsoever.

As far as the valve train having water on it, that must just be an illusion made by the poor quality pictures. I did not see any signs of moisture on anything internally.

Yes I do. I have been thinking that that could play a role in why this happened, but I just don't really know why.

that's most likely the problem. the alcohol in e85 attracts water. if you let it sit for a long time, it will attract water and cause certain parts to rust.

Boom.

E85 is hygroscopic just like brake fluid, I would have your injectors tested as well, a few people have rusted sets closed.

There is a good writeup about this a few pages back, I will try to dig it up.

How did E-85 get into the spark plug tube seals though?!? I never let the car sit for more than a couple days to a week without starting it.

The humidity you have in Houston would be the problem especially when you run it hot and then a cold night sets in. I'd have a good look at the seals, you can use a few different things to mark the seals and test if they're sealing, they make a crayon/chalk for that used in setting gears in a rear diff, it's bright yellow.

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.s2k...ea37af09ee.jpg
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.s2k...02672d38cf.jpg
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Bringing this back from the dead. I have recently replaced all my valve cover gaskets, spark plugs, and coil packs due to a really bad leak in cylinder 2 and 3 but low and behold only after 1 month it is leaking again. Upon closer inspection this time I noticed all the tubes are rusting to shit along the walls... All four cylinders.

For cylinder 2, I believe the rust has gone through the wall causing oil to leak into the tube.
I may need to buy a whole new cylinder head due to this.

Also, I am on e85. I think this is the cause of the rusting as e85 tends to create moisture in the cylinder head.

Did anybody hear reach a solution or figure out what the problem was? Is there even a way to replace the metal tubes? Or is that a part of the cylinder head?

Old thread! Well to me, in the OP case, the Tube seals in pics look twisted, not seated properly. If you replaced them and jammed the valve cover back on without any kind of lubrication to allow them to slip over the tubes, I could see this happening. That aside. It looks to me like you maybe had water pooled up on top of the valve cover and eventually leaked down past the coils and into the tubes. Just enough to keep moisture in there and rust. The engine/cylinders themselves are probably totally fine. The spark plugs look normal/w no signs of coolant burning or other contamination. .

The metal tubes should slip out/replaceable.

Thanks for your 2 cents. I'm going to be replacing all the gaskets again (done a month ago). And clean up all the rust (hopefully didnt rust through the tubes). Also good to know they're replaceable, shouldnt have to take all the valvetrain out to do the job if needed...although I could not find the part numbers on any honda parts website.

Kind of odd that Honda would make those out of regular steel that can rust, instead of stainless.

^^^it is odd. Every tube has some rust, and rust only formed along the middle of the pipe about 1" in height consistently on all four. some worse than others. All the coilpacks were covered in rust when pulled. Mind you these were brand new coilpacks put in about 1 month ago.

May be wise to look into pulling them and sand blasting if the rust hasn't eaten it up too bad. Then see if you can find a place that could nickel plate or have some other plating coated on, as long as it can withstand the heat.

Nothing to do with moisture in fuel. The combustion chamber is sealed off from the rest of engine, and those tubes, or else you wouldn't have compression. Any moisture from fuel goes out exhaust.

What sort of hood do you have? Letting rain onto top of engine?

Okay, so this weekend I took the VC off again. Luckily its a leak due to a poorly installed tube seal in cyl 2 causing surface rust to accumulate on the inside of the tubes. It didnt rust through the tubes like i thought. I used rust remover/sealant on the insides of the tubes and replaced all the gaskets. This time being SUPER careful seating the tube seals around the tubes.

I'm running a spoon style vented hood. But i live in socal and hardly ever see rain. Car wash maybe once every 3 months. Multiple people agreed its because of E85. The moisture was coming from a leak in the tube seal (from the head). It was letting oil into the tubes (mixed with e85 fumes) which attracts water. This is why a lot of parts in the fuel and oil system corrode. If running E85, I would recommend oil changes be done much more regularly. I would say every 2k miles. And use E85 fuel stabilizer if you're going to leave it parked for long periods of time between drives.

I also reintroduced vacuum to my engine by reinstalling my PCV and connecting the line between the VC and intake manifold. I installed the Balladesports vented oil cap to route another vacuum line from my VC to my catch can. Hopefully this improves the engine's ability to draw out any fuel vapor and moisture caused by it in the engine. I remember a couple times under the oil cap the oil residue looked tannish like it was contaminated with water. My thinking is having the two ports alone going to the catch can with the PCV removed is enough to vent and keep pressure from building up in the engine but was poor at drawing out fuel vapor. At least with the vacuum created by the intake manifold reconnected to the VC it should help suck out the vapors better. :ponder:
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.s2k...ad4d005d03.jpg
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.s2k...ca05f9b26e.jpg

Those many people that told you your rust problem was caused by an oil leak are wrong.

First of all, you didn't find any oil in the tube, just rust. If it was moisture laden oil, there would still be some oil.

More importantly, oil prevents rust. Even if there is a bit more moisture in it than usual. Even if there were a lot more moisture than usual.

Which makes more sense:

water from car washes and occasional rain went through vented hood to top of engine, where it dripped down into tube, and caused rust

OR

Oil leaked past tube seal into tube, bringing excess moisture with it, then somehow the oil evaporated but not the water, leaving the water to cause rust.

One of these theories requires violating laws of physics, the other just requires water we already know was on top of engine on more than one occasion to have leaked past one of the coil pack seals.

Just to clarify my findings since I'm learning as i go along. There was oil found in cylinder 2 on top of the spark plug causing misfires, sorry if i wasnt clear in my previous post. There was probably 1/2" of oil pooling in that tube. The oil probably got in there due to an improperly installed tube seal from the last time I had it removed and reinstalled.

Now for the rust issue, rust was found in all four tubes. Rust accumulation was forming only inside the tubes about midway down the tube about 1.5-2" wide. The pictures above were poorly taken and I wasn't able to really capture the rust build up. It was pretty bad. The rust accumulated to a point where the rust build up was protruding from the tube walls getting all over the coil packs. Luckily it didn't rust through the tubes as I first anticipated. It wasnt just rust powder, it was hard and jagged when you run you fingers over it.
As to why rust was building up i have no clue. I can only assume it has something to do with my use of E85 full time (since I never had this issue on pump gas for 50k miles). FYI, i've been on only E85 for the past 3-4 years. My theory is E85 attracts more moisture thus the fuel vapors in the cylinder head is attracting water doing one of two things: contaminating the oil and causing water to build up and cause rust inside the tube seals. In addition, the way i had my oil catch can set up probably wasn't helping either. I removed my PCV and ran two lines from my VC to the catch can. This setup will push the vapors out only when positive pressure is built up in the cylinder head. Vacuum is no longer present since the PCV was removed and the line connecting the VC to the intake manifold was removed and ports capped.
My new catch can setup incorporates a balladesports oil cap with a port to run to the catch can. I reinstalled the oem PCV valve system. So now, vacuum is reintroduced to my engine. I'm hoping this will help draw out any vapors preventing water from accumulating in the head...we'll see only time will tell.

Dude, moisture in oil ain't causing no rust. Not happening. Oil prevents rust, not causes it.

If there were enough moisture in the oil to cause rust, there'd have to be so much water it sat on top of the oil, and if there were that much your engine bearings would be destroyed.

You literally have holes in your hood where water can get to top of engine, but somehow you think the problem is moisture from the oil, not water through the hood.