s_d2k

hi.
i want to start collecting parts for my turbo project and have 2 questions:
what u guys think about this turbo

http://www.turboelements.com/index.php?act...rod&productId=8
with the 0.63 A/R. turbine housing
its for the f20c engine , i want it to be at full boost (around 10-12 psi) at about 4000-4300 rpm and be able to keep boost and pull hard all the way to red line at 9000 rpm . it will do the work or will choke up top after 8000 rpm?

and the second and most important question is about the fuel managment.
i dont want to go aem ems for one reason because i dont think that there is enough experience in my country with this system and i dont want to be so dependent in the tuner and also i use the car daily so i have no room or time for mistakes or problems.
so what i want to do is to use this

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAP...em=190252490651

its graet to control the fuel with and very easy to use , but my concern is with the timing , can the engine and original computer handle that (the boost) ?
what is used in the engine to set timing (distributor) ?
is there a way to change timing a bit or its not needed because in low boost (10-12 psi) the computer will be fine?
is there any project with this fmu here??
and what is the original injetors size in the f20c?

thank u for reading i know its long but i really need your help...

dimi

You will need a tune of some sort. Some have tuned using cheaper alternatives like Emanage, but EMS is usually preferred.

RichV

I would think your going to need more than just an adjustable FPR. Actually the stock FPR is really good. You need some kind of computer, because you need to pull timing, adjust for larger injectors, change A/F ratios, and other things to get a turbo like that to run properly. Like Dimi said, the emanage ultimate works well for me if you don't want to go EMS, but you need something to override the stock ECU when you go into boost. That's a good turbo though.

snakeeater

If you try to turbo with just an FMU to add fuel you are truly asking for a blown engine. If it could be done safely for so cheap, you would see such kits all over e-bay. FMU has limited usefulness (low boost superchargers). Anyone adding hi boost to a supercharger adds a piggyback or standalone ECU to tune a/f, decrease ignition timing, etc.

The only reason an FMU can work with a supercharger is because there is a fixed ratio of compressor speed to engine speed (pulley sizes). So the flowrates between the engine and the compressor are known and fixed. Since the boost pressure/flow variables are known and fixed, the simple FMU can be set up (with extensive tuning) to maintain balanced a/f ratio under (almost) all conditions. FMU can raise fuel pressure enough to degrade the injectors' spray pattern. Injectors are designed to operate with 45 psi difference across the orifice. 10 psi boost thru a 12:1 FMU more than doubles the injector's differential pressure.

Turbo has variable output (controlled by wastegate). FMU can't safely manage the system's complex relationship between engine rpm / load / turbo output / fuel needs. FMU is just a simple proportional controller.

s_d2k

i understand everything u saying but this is not a reguler fmu ,
i can set the pressure for under boosy from 1:1 all the way
to 1:12 Fuel Deliver Ratio.
so i can get to almost perfect a/f ratio under boost just my big concern is the timing! and thats want im askin u ..
is the original ecu smart and would run good on this system under very good a/f ratio?
or i can forget about it and it will never work.
my friend is driving like this on his peupeot for almost 40k miles alraedy(in original 1.6 liter 8 valve na engine) on 10 psi of boost and its doin graet work no knock or nothing.
and in the peugeot the stock ecu is very old and i believe not even close to the stock ecu on the s2k by sophistication and technology..

and what do u say about the turbo good enough for what im askin??
and what is the stock pressure in the oem fpr?

snakeeater

60 trim t3/t4 turbo is a pretty decent turbo choice for f20c. Kind of old school, since its heyday was the b-series honda's. Most people with f20c use the 30 or 35 series turbos these days, for more power potential. A few here have firsthand experience with them though.

Synchronic has the most hi tech FPRs, BOVs, & WGs that I have seen. You might contact them and ask if they recommend FPR-only control on any f20c turbo system. If they do, ask them for recommendations on how to set it up. I think they will concede that even with their best diaphragm-less rising rate FPR, BOV & WG, you still need some smart tunable electronics.

There's more to "engine load" than simply boost pressure - throttle position, for example. There's also more to air flow than simply boost pressure - air intake temp, for example. While these extra variables can be managed by stock ECU during off-boost conditions, once you go into boost you would be managing a/f ratio strictly off the simple proportional fuel pressure regulator. Doesn't seem safe to me.

Several supercharger companies (like Comptech & Vortech) have standalone timing retarders that work similarly to the way a FMU works. They retard timing at a fixed (while running, but adjustable when shut down) rate proportional to boost pressure. That is the best way to handle ignition short of a piggyback or standalone ECU that I can think of.

I have a feeling that running ignition retard and fuel flow off simple proportional (to boost pressure) controllers will cause drive-ability problems. The basic single element (2D) proportional controllers for fuel pressure and timing retard can theoretically manage things on paper under steady-state conditions. But actual driving includes many transients and subtle nuances, like driver's intentions. That is the reason that OEM's (and aftermarket tuners) use multi-element (3D or even 4D) map tables in their ECUs. Not because they like to add cost and complexity, but because it is necessary for a good driving esperience.

Good luck and keep us posted on your progress as you proceed.

s_d2k

thank u for the answer ,that is what i want to know how they do it in the supercharger retard timing and work with fmu ?
because i know a lot of guys install supercharger on stock cr and it runs very good with no ecu upgrade in low boost and maybe 300 whp?