Running s/c without EMS?
03-13-2015, 05:56 PM
#1
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Running s/c without EMS?
As the title says, is it still OK to run the s/c without EMS? I've got stock pulley that came with the blower..
I've heard that if you only install the ESM that came with it, your motor will run lean and eventually destroys your motor..
Can someone confirm this?
I've heard that if you only install the ESM that came with it, your motor will run lean and eventually destroys your motor..
Can someone confirm this?
03-13-2015, 06:26 PM
#2
One would need to run the supplied electronics and rising rate fuel pressure regulator that came with the kit originally . This is based on the assumption that the pulley is the standard one utilized in the kit . If a smaller pulley is used then a proper after market ecm would be required for safe reliable performance . If all is stock then you would need to verify a safe a/f ratio is obtained throughout the entire rpm range . These kits can sometimes run lean out of the box but not always . Take it to a dyno to check things out . That will tell the story and will be much cheaper than rolling the dice only to hurt the engine in the process .
03-13-2015, 06:34 PM
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One would need to run the supplied electronics and rising rate fuel pressure regulator that came with the kit originally . This is based on the assumption that the pulley is the standard one utilized in the kit . If a smaller pulley is used then a proper after market ecm would be required for safe reliable performance . If all is stock then you would need to verify a safe a/f ratio is obtained throughout the entire rpm range . These kits can sometimes run lean out of the box but not always . Take it to a dyno to check things out . That will tell the story and will be much cheaper than rolling the dice only to hurt the engine in the process .
A local well-known and reputable tuner told me to get EMS otherwise I'll break my motor in two months.. He's willing to bet $$$$ for that to happen..
03-13-2015, 08:10 PM
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Another question: He said I will be needing injectors as well.. My question is, will upgrading only the fuel pump be adequate? I think it's feasible to tune without upgrading the injectors since I got the fuel pressure regulator. CMIIW..
Right now I'm in a dilemma to sell my kit or go further.. Help me pls
Right now I'm in a dilemma to sell my kit or go further.. Help me pls
03-13-2015, 09:15 PM
#5
The fuel pressure regulator is adjustable so you can dial in your AFR. Take it to the Dyno or get a Wideband gauge so you can always monitor your AFR. General rule of thumb is that if you're boosting your motor you should run an EMS with a tune. However, plenty of people have run their base supercharger kits with the fuel pressure regulator for thousands of miles with NO issues. The kit is designed to run your stock injectors with the fuel pressure regulator. A fuel pump is a must regardless.
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03-14-2015, 01:43 PM
#8
As long as your running the stock 4.25-4.4" pulley depending of ap1/ap2) the supplied rrfpr will deliver the fuel you need to run safe. You will need an upgraded fuel pump if it did not come with your kit, as the stock fuel pump will not be able to push the added pressure you need.
Will you get a better tune from an aftermarket EMS and injectors, ditching the rrfpr? Yes, however it is not required to run a safe tune nor to have fun with the car in its current config long term. It has proven to be a reliable set up for over a decade, assuming you perform the initial afr check/calibration, which will require you either street tune with a wideband gauge, or running a few pulls on a dyno. The rrfpr has a fuel adjustment to get you dialed in to a safe tune. No timing provisions are included in this kit, nor are they needed on this stage 1, low boost amount.
Most tuners will frown upon such a kit becuase its their job as tuners to up sell you on needed their services. Not promote a "you tune system" as this was designed to be. Only a tuner id trust would be one that would tell you what I just did. Directing you honestly through experience on the pros and any real cons. Not scare you into needing them and thousands of dollars on more equipment only they can work with on your car.
So to say again, do you need it to run safe? No, as long as you make sure the fuel adjustment is calibrated. Will you get a more efficient running car with a little more power with a EMS and injectors and professional good tune? Yes, in the mid range from lowering vtec and a more precise fuel curve in the lower rpms. Peak power? no since your already running full timing advance with stock ecu. So then comes is it worth the extra 2-3k it will cost you now or not to get that lower/mid range power. Id say not if your planning on sticking with your current boost level. If you want to go up from where you are now then it needs to be considered anyway, and at least then you can take full advantage of your money spent. It is a whole other costly investment, so make sure you know what your getting and not getting for your money.
Will you get a better tune from an aftermarket EMS and injectors, ditching the rrfpr? Yes, however it is not required to run a safe tune nor to have fun with the car in its current config long term. It has proven to be a reliable set up for over a decade, assuming you perform the initial afr check/calibration, which will require you either street tune with a wideband gauge, or running a few pulls on a dyno. The rrfpr has a fuel adjustment to get you dialed in to a safe tune. No timing provisions are included in this kit, nor are they needed on this stage 1, low boost amount.
Most tuners will frown upon such a kit becuase its their job as tuners to up sell you on needed their services. Not promote a "you tune system" as this was designed to be. Only a tuner id trust would be one that would tell you what I just did. Directing you honestly through experience on the pros and any real cons. Not scare you into needing them and thousands of dollars on more equipment only they can work with on your car.
So to say again, do you need it to run safe? No, as long as you make sure the fuel adjustment is calibrated. Will you get a more efficient running car with a little more power with a EMS and injectors and professional good tune? Yes, in the mid range from lowering vtec and a more precise fuel curve in the lower rpms. Peak power? no since your already running full timing advance with stock ecu. So then comes is it worth the extra 2-3k it will cost you now or not to get that lower/mid range power. Id say not if your planning on sticking with your current boost level. If you want to go up from where you are now then it needs to be considered anyway, and at least then you can take full advantage of your money spent. It is a whole other costly investment, so make sure you know what your getting and not getting for your money.
03-14-2015, 02:27 PM
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As long as your running the stock 4.25-4.4" pulley depending of ap1/ap2) the supplied rrfpr will deliver the fuel you need to run safe. You will need an upgraded fuel pump if it did not come with your kit, as the stock fuel pump will not be able to push the added pressure you need.
Will you get a better tune from an aftermarket EMS and injectors, ditching the rrfpr? Yes, however it is not required to run a safe tune nor to have fun with the car in its current config long term. It has proven to be a reliable set up for over a decade, assuming you perform the initial afr check/calibration, which will require you either street tune with a wideband gauge, or running a few pulls on a dyno. The rrfpr has a fuel adjustment to get you dialed in to a safe tune. No timing provisions are included in this kit, nor are they needed on this stage 1, low boost amount.
Most tuners will frown upon such a kit becuase its their job as tuners to up sell you on needed their services. Not promote a "you tune system" as this was designed to be. Only a tuner id trust would be one that would tell you what I just did. Directing you honestly through experience on the pros and any real cons. Not scare you into needing them and thousands of dollars on more equipment only they can work with on your car.
So to say again, do you need it to run safe? No, as long as you make sure the fuel adjustment is calibrated. Will you get a more efficient running car with a little more power with a EMS and injectors and professional good tune? Yes, in the mid range from lowering vtec and a more precise fuel curve in the lower rpms. Peak power? no since your already running full timing advance with stock ecu. So then comes is it worth the extra 2-3k it will cost you now or not to get that lower/mid range power. Id say not if your planning on sticking with your current boost level. If you want to go up from where you are now then it needs to be considered anyway, and at least then you can take full advantage of your money spent. It is a whole other costly investment, so make sure you know what your getting and not getting for your money.
Will you get a better tune from an aftermarket EMS and injectors, ditching the rrfpr? Yes, however it is not required to run a safe tune nor to have fun with the car in its current config long term. It has proven to be a reliable set up for over a decade, assuming you perform the initial afr check/calibration, which will require you either street tune with a wideband gauge, or running a few pulls on a dyno. The rrfpr has a fuel adjustment to get you dialed in to a safe tune. No timing provisions are included in this kit, nor are they needed on this stage 1, low boost amount.
Most tuners will frown upon such a kit becuase its their job as tuners to up sell you on needed their services. Not promote a "you tune system" as this was designed to be. Only a tuner id trust would be one that would tell you what I just did. Directing you honestly through experience on the pros and any real cons. Not scare you into needing them and thousands of dollars on more equipment only they can work with on your car.
So to say again, do you need it to run safe? No, as long as you make sure the fuel adjustment is calibrated. Will you get a more efficient running car with a little more power with a EMS and injectors and professional good tune? Yes, in the mid range from lowering vtec and a more precise fuel curve in the lower rpms. Peak power? no since your already running full timing advance with stock ecu. So then comes is it worth the extra 2-3k it will cost you now or not to get that lower/mid range power. Id say not if your planning on sticking with your current boost level. If you want to go up from where you are now then it needs to be considered anyway, and at least then you can take full advantage of your money spent. It is a whole other costly investment, so make sure you know what your getting and not getting for your money.
I guess I'll just listen to you, I don't feel safe if I don't tune my car,, Really don't wanna blow the motor up.
I agree with you to just trust the tuners who has much more knowledge than me since I don't have any experience with air fuel ratio on cars..
Nevertheless, if one day I decided not to boost my car anymore, I can just sell the kit and the EMS..
03-14-2015, 02:30 PM
#10
This is probably the car at mine & Max's shop. You must think Max is a hack and jerking your leg -- where in fact he's actually trying to get you to buy the right parts so the car runs, drives and operates properly after it's done.
I ordered a new tensioner & pulley from CT-e for you yesterday. I can't even get the 1000 bracket anymore to replace the busted one that came with the used kit.
what if after a dyno and you're running lean? Would that mean you need an EMS eventually?
A local well-known and reputable tuner told me to get EMS otherwise I'll break my motor in two months.. He's willing to bet $$$$ for that to happen..
An EMS, injectors and fuel pump are required to tune fuel & timing and supply the motor with the fuel required for the new demands of the supercharger.
Fuel pump is a supporting mod, it does not increase the amount of fuel you can deliver into the motor directly, that is what they injectors are for. FPR is also a supporting mod (sure you can crank up base pressure and it supplies more fuel since the injectors would still be run at whatever PW they were at in the factory ecu, part throttle drivability will be quite interesting tho).
Every properly done F/I install requires, at minimum:
- Fuel injectors
- Fuel pump
- EMS
If you can't or don't want to by those, don't waste your time.
FPR is not for dialing in AFR. Nor is it the for "tuning fuel".
THank you, lol.
My job is to make sure the car leaves the shop and runs for years to come without any problems. As such we'll make recommendations on the PROPER parts to purchase for this to be the case. I make something like a 1-2% margin on the parts I sell to customers at the shop. Yeah my motivation is making 20 bucks off an EMS 
Last thing I want is a customer coming back complaining about issues with the car after a repair. The CT-e kit in question is a very old used kit, from what I can tell it's not even all that "complete". I haven't seen a Novi 1000 setup in.... ages and ages.
Running hte full timing advance of the stock ECU on our pump gas is also not reliable. Being able to adjust the VTEC point opens up a LOT of mid range power as well.
I ordered a new tensioner & pulley from CT-e for you yesterday. I can't even get the 1000 bracket anymore to replace the busted one that came with the used kit.
Originally Posted by joes sled 2000' timestamp='1426299989' post='23539523
One would need to run the supplied electronics and rising rate fuel pressure regulator that came with the kit originally . This is based on the assumption that the pulley is the standard one utilized in the kit . If a smaller pulley is used then a proper after market ecm would be required for safe reliable performance . If all is stock then you would need to verify a safe a/f ratio is obtained throughout the entire rpm range . These kits can sometimes run lean out of the box but not always . Take it to a dyno to check things out . That will tell the story and will be much cheaper than rolling the dice only to hurt the engine in the process .
A local well-known and reputable tuner told me to get EMS otherwise I'll break my motor in two months.. He's willing to bet $$$$ for that to happen..
Another question: He said I will be needing injectors as well.. My question is, will upgrading only the fuel pump be adequate? I think it's feasible to tune without upgrading the injectors since I got the fuel pressure regulator. CMIIW..
Right now I'm in a dilemma to sell my kit or go further.. Help me pls
Right now I'm in a dilemma to sell my kit or go further.. Help me pls
Every properly done F/I install requires, at minimum:
- Fuel injectors
- Fuel pump
- EMS
If you can't or don't want to by those, don't waste your time.
The fuel pressure regulator is adjustable so you can dial in your AFR. Take it to the Dyno or get a Wideband gauge so you can always monitor your AFR. General rule of thumb is that if you're boosting your motor you should run an EMS with a tune. However, plenty of people have run their base supercharger kits with the fuel pressure regulator for thousands of miles with NO issues. The kit is designed to run your stock injectors with the fuel pressure regulator. A fuel pump is a must regardless.
THank you, lol.
As long as your running the stock 4.25-4.4" pulley depending of ap1/ap2) the supplied rrfpr will deliver the fuel you need to run safe. You will need an upgraded fuel pump if it did not come with your kit, as the stock fuel pump will not be able to push the added pressure you need.
Will you get a better tune from an aftermarket EMS and injectors, ditching the rrfpr? Yes, however it is not required to run a safe tune nor to have fun with the car in its current config long term. It has proven to be a reliable set up for over a decade, assuming you perform the initial afr check/calibration, which will require you either street tune with a wideband gauge, or running a few pulls on a dyno. The rrfpr has a fuel adjustment to get you dialed in to a safe tune. No timing provisions are included in this kit, nor are they needed on this stage 1, low boost amount.
Most tuners will frown upon such a kit becuase its their job as tuners to up sell you on needed their services. Not promote a "you tune system" as this was designed to be. Only a tuner id trust would be one that would tell you what I just did. Directing you honestly through experience on the pros and any real cons. Not scare you into needing them and thousands of dollars on more equipment only they can work with on your car.
So to say again, do you need it to run safe? No, as long as you make sure the fuel adjustment is calibrated. Will you get a more efficient running car with a little more power with a EMS and injectors and professional good tune? Yes, in the mid range from lowering vtec and a more precise fuel curve in the lower rpms. Peak power? no since your already running full timing advance with stock ecu. So then comes is it worth the extra 2-3k it will cost you now or not to get that lower/mid range power. Id say not if your planning on sticking with your current boost level. If you want to go up from where you are now then it needs to be considered anyway, and at least then you can take full advantage of your money spent. It is a whole other costly investment, so make sure you know what your getting and not getting for your money.
Will you get a better tune from an aftermarket EMS and injectors, ditching the rrfpr? Yes, however it is not required to run a safe tune nor to have fun with the car in its current config long term. It has proven to be a reliable set up for over a decade, assuming you perform the initial afr check/calibration, which will require you either street tune with a wideband gauge, or running a few pulls on a dyno. The rrfpr has a fuel adjustment to get you dialed in to a safe tune. No timing provisions are included in this kit, nor are they needed on this stage 1, low boost amount.
Most tuners will frown upon such a kit becuase its their job as tuners to up sell you on needed their services. Not promote a "you tune system" as this was designed to be. Only a tuner id trust would be one that would tell you what I just did. Directing you honestly through experience on the pros and any real cons. Not scare you into needing them and thousands of dollars on more equipment only they can work with on your car.
So to say again, do you need it to run safe? No, as long as you make sure the fuel adjustment is calibrated. Will you get a more efficient running car with a little more power with a EMS and injectors and professional good tune? Yes, in the mid range from lowering vtec and a more precise fuel curve in the lower rpms. Peak power? no since your already running full timing advance with stock ecu. So then comes is it worth the extra 2-3k it will cost you now or not to get that lower/mid range power. Id say not if your planning on sticking with your current boost level. If you want to go up from where you are now then it needs to be considered anyway, and at least then you can take full advantage of your money spent. It is a whole other costly investment, so make sure you know what your getting and not getting for your money.
Last thing I want is a customer coming back complaining about issues with the car after a repair. The CT-e kit in question is a very old used kit, from what I can tell it's not even all that "complete". I haven't seen a Novi 1000 setup in.... ages and ages.
Running hte full timing advance of the stock ECU on our pump gas is also not reliable. Being able to adjust the VTEC point opens up a LOT of mid range power as well.