BalladeSports

We are excited to introduce our new interpretation of the OEM roll hoops with the added ability to utilize a 4-6 point harness while utilizing Honda's tried and true safety. The harness mounting points meet within specified shoulder harness angle parameters, while retaining the factory 3 point OEM seat belt for street use along with keeping all factory interior intact. We highly recommend the usage of a HANS or other head and neck restraints when using a non factory 4-6 point harness for your safety.







Ballade Sports
13851 A Better Way #11D
Garden Grove, CA 92843
714-902-9027
www.balladesports.com

BalladeSports

Here is an un-edited photo with seat harnesses:

Ricky_Flowers_

I'll bite.

Why the hell would you need harnesses but not need a roll bar?

What organization in their right mind would let you on track with this?

How does this comply with any kind of organizational rule book regarding harness placement?

And most importantly.....

Why the hell do you need harnesses on the street?

andrewhake

Technically this would meet recommended harness placement angles no problem wouldn't it? Most manufacturers suggest the harness to be angled from 0-20 degrees down from the top of someone shoulders and this should meet that just fine I would think. Most harness bars on aftermarket roll bars would be at a similar height.

Most organizations would require a higher roll bar in addition to the factory roll hoops when using a harness I would guess but not all of them. Very few HPDE or TT organizations in CA require a roll bar in an S2000 for participation. Obviously not the case in other states.

I tend to agree with you but I am interested in why a very slightly higher aftermarket bolt-in 4 point roll bar is considered safe to use with harnesses while everyone will think this is not. The aftermarket roll bar is completely untested in the car in almost every situation but for some reason it is considered safe because it looks like it should be safe. For a shorter person who sits well below the stock roll hoops how is this unsafe? The factory roll hoops take the stock seat belt load and are actually tested to do so.

I am too tall for any of this so it doesn't really matter for me, but for small man children it should work just fine.

andrewhake

What I am more curious about is if you guys managed to find a way to separate the roll hoop plastic without breaking it?

andrewhake

I agree with the things you said but they didn't really address what I asked. I am not assuming anyone would be trying to use harnesses with the stock seats. I don't think anyone at Ballade is either. To be clear I wouldn't use this with harnesses without an additional roll bar because I am much taller than the roll hoops would ever be able to support with harnesses and I wouldn't offer this part/service without being very clear about the various safety concerns.

For a short person (think Tsuchiya who is 5'5" or something) in a bucket seat like the SPG, that sits well below the factory roll hoop height even with a helmet on, how is this less safe than a taller person using an aftermarket roll bar with a similar harness setup? Obviously a roll bar with additional mounting points should be able to support and spread more weight in the event of a roll over, but the factory roll hoops are actually tested to do that.

How would this in anyway effect someone doing a state inspection? The OEM seatbelt would stay completely intact with this. You also mentioned side impact safety. A short person wearing a helmet and harnesses in a side impact is less safe than a person with an aftermarket roll bar wearing a helmet and harnesses? How much would a 4 point roll bar really contribute to side impact safety with the main exposed area being the doors?

Ricky_Flowers_

Because not only are you asking the roll hoops to protect you in a rollover, you're also now asking the factory bolt in roll hoops to support the full force of any force applied to the harnesses. These forces are normally distributed between the seatbelt reel and the roll hoop. Also, you're saying that just because you're below average height and you can drop down in your seat that you trust yourself to tighten your harnesses up every single time you get in the car? How many of us can say we've always ridden in a car with harnesses and they were always tight enough to keep you pinned to your seat? The point of the seat belt tensioner is to keep you in your seat in an impact, yet allow lateral freedom of movement. You don't get that with harnesses, so many people will leave them loosened on the street. I know I've done it, and it's part of the reason I no longer run harnesses or a roll bar in my street car. It is simply unsafe. If you have you actually justify this to yourself, you are wrong.

As far as state inspections go, no, I wouldn't imagine they'd be compromise road legality if the stock belt was present.

The point is, if you have to justify to yourself that this is safe (it isn't) than it shouldn't be in your street car. Again, if people catch onto this and install it in their cars, great! Darwinism.

Ricky_Flowers_

Pertaining to your late addition asking about side protection, no, this would be no more dangerous in a side impact than someone in a car with a roll bar and harnesses, but you shouldn't BE in a car, on the street, wearing a harness and with a roll bar. The harness would not allow you to move laterally, making you more susceptible to serious injury. On the street, you use the OEM safety equipment to keep you safe. On track for HPDE and TT, you use a roll bar and harnesses/hans. W2W, you have a cage with door bars.

andrewhake

I am not trying to justify anything for myself or have any intention of running harnesses in my street car. But I know plenty of short people who drive their car on the street using normal OEM belts and aftermarket 4 point roll bar and bucket seats, and use 6 point harnesses on the track. I don't particularly think a 4 point roll bar that is well behind the seats is particularly dangerous without a helmet, but some might. In that situation having the benefits of a harness on track, without the possible negatives of a roll bar on the street without a helmet, would be possible.

The factory seat belt reel bolts to the roll hoops. The seatbelt reel itself doesn't really accommodate any of the force put through the factory belts, it just locks up and allows the force to be put upon the belts and into the roll hoop. The belts themselves stretch in a heavy impact (as do harnesses), so a ton of force is being put into the OEM roll hoop. Not to mention the lap belts which are likely taking most of the force. It is easy to see this in the S2000 crash test videos so nobody has to take my word for it. You can guess that the factory roll hoop isn't designed to take the exact force applied from two shoulder harness belts but they are clearly designed to absorb a massive amount from a single factory shoulder belt absorbing all the weight of the human meat bag in the seat. If anything two belts would just even out that load more across the entire roll hoop.

I am not sure why you assume that people would use this with harnesses on the street at all, but I completely agree that harnesses on the street are unsafe in the sense that they are incredibly impractical and very unlikely to be worn correctly.

If anything, this is absolutely fantastic for all of the S2000 owners with pretend track/time attack cars. They can easily pop on some harnesses before the car show, right after they unbolt their hood and set it off to the side.

andrewhake

Completely agree. Although I have absolutely no issue using the OEM safety equipment on track and either do a large percentage of other people (at least on the west coast). If I was building a car that spent most of it's time on track it would have a roll bar and harnesses/hans.

The only reason I brought it up was to see if there was any compelling reason why a person that met particular criteria couldn't use something like this safely. And so far the only reason that has been given is Ricky Flowers doesn't think the roll hoops could support the load of two shoulder belts in an impact. Having seen multiple times that Ricky Flowers is often not correct in his assumptions, I await further theory or evidence.