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Feezy's Toda ITB Build and Discussion Thread

Old 01-24-2017, 01:04 PM
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Default Feezy's Toda ITB Build and Discussion Thread

Like my last ITB thread, I'll be sharing the related posts with my primary thread in the gallery. The first few posts will be picture heavy for this reason.

A couple years back I sold the Hayward ITBs with the intention of moving onto a new set up. The Haywards were my first attempt at putting together a set of ITBs for the S2000 and after I had completed the car I wanted to see how other set ups would compare. I had been debating between the Urge set up (AT Power to their Specs) or the Todas. Both kits have their pros and cons and like pretty much every decision I make for these cars I got stuck into over analyzing it and eventually lost interest.

You can find a link to the original Hayward thread here: https://www.s2ki.com/forums/s2000-na...hread-1074062/

After a lot of back and forth I finally settled on the Toda Sports Injection kit. I figured if their kits are good enough for pretty much all of the JDM racing houses then they are good enough for me. The Toda set up has the additional benefit of having an optional surge tank (air box). Not only would this let me funnel air straight to the throttles, it also looks fantastic in the engine bay, and helps cleaning everything up for an OEM'ish look. It also presents a series of problems which I'll get into later.
The other option that really sold me on the Todas was the additional ISCV piece. Basically it's a tube shaped vacuum block that has an idle air control valve off of some Toyota incorporated into it. The Toda manifold is set up with multiple vacuum sources, so you can have a dedicated line and block for things like the FPR, MAP, Brake Booster, and then you can have a completely separate system for the IACV. That way you don't lost vacuum when you're at idle and the IACV opens up.

At the beginning of 2016 I had placed an order for the Toda 50mm Sports Injection kit, the Toda Dry Carbon Surge Tank, and the Toda ISCV. Unfortunately a few days after I was informed than the surge tank and ISCV were both on indefinite back order and it didn't sound like they had any ETA on when they would be restocking. I was going with the Todas because of the two optional pieces that I couldn't get at the time, so I canceled the order.

At the end of 2016 I had a large chunk of time off of work and I decided to start making some progress on putting the Ap1 back together. I had talked with a guy I found on Instagram about purchasing his set of Todas that he picked up and never used, but the price and condition just didn't make sense for me to pull the trigger. They looked good, and they came with some extras, but they had changed hands a few times by people who had never installed them and I couldn't be confident that they still had all the pieces. I'll also say that if you're trying to sell rare parts for a large premium you can do your self a favor by taking more than two pictures of everything thrown into a box, and reply with more than "everything in the picture is included" when asked for a detailed breakdown of what's actually included and pictures of the condition. At this point I decided I wasn't going to buy used and inquired again about the Todas. To my surprise I heard back almost immediately that they had just restocked and a few of each item in stock. I think it took all of 3 days to order and receive the kit.
Once they arrived I had Adrs2k come over and do his usual round of pictures. The quality of these things are phenomenal. Just holding them in your hands you can see why the price tag is what it is. Granted I haven't put them on yet but I am very excited to see what they can do. On with the pictures!

I went a little overboard with the pictures and documentation but since these things seldom pop up I thought it would be worthwhile.

The Disclaimer and Instructions


12.23.2016 - Toda Racing - Instructions - Disclaimer (1) by Feezy, on Flickr


12.23.2016 - Toda Racing - Instructions (1) by Feezy, on Flickr


12.23.2016 - Toda Racing - Instructions (2) by Feezy, on Flickr


12.23.2016 - Toda Racing - Instructions (3) by Feezy, on Flickr


Toda Racing - 50mm Sports Injection Kit with 88mm Trumpets


12.23.2016 - Toda Racing - 50mm Sports Injection Kit with 88mm Trumpets (1) by Feezy, on Flickr


12.23.2016 - Toda Racing - 50mm Sports Injection Kit with 88mm Trumpets (2) by Feezy, on Flickr


12.23.2016 - Toda Racing - 50mm Sports Injection Kit with 88mm Trumpets (3) by Feezy, on Flickr


12.23.2016 - Toda Racing - 50mm Sports Injection Kit with 88mm Trumpets (5) by Feezy, on Flickr


12.23.2016 - Toda Racing - 50mm Sports Injection Kit with 88mm Trumpets (6) by Feezy, on Flickr


12.23.2016 - Toda Racing - 50mm Sports Injection Kit with 88mm Trumpets (7) by Feezy, on Flickr


12.23.2016 - Toda Racing - 50mm Sports Injection Kit with 88mm Trumpets (8) by Feezy, on Flickr


12.23.2016 - Toda Racing - 50mm Sports Injection Kit with 88mm Trumpets (9) by Feezy, on Flickr


12.23.2016 - Toda Racing - 50mm Sports Injection Kit with 88mm Trumpets (10) by Feezy, on Flickr


12.23.2016 - Toda Racing - 50mm Sports Injection Kit with 88mm Trumpets (11) by Feezy, on Flickr


12.23.2016 - Toda Racing - 50mm Sports Injection Kit with 88mm Trumpets (12) by Feezy, on Flickr


12.23.2016 - Toda Racing - 50mm Sports Injection Kit with 88mm Trumpets (13) by Feezy, on Flickr


12.23.2016 - Toda Racing - 50mm Sports Injection Kit with 88mm Trumpets (14) by Feezy, on Flickr


12.23.2016 - Toda Racing - 50mm Sports Injection Kit with 88mm Trumpets (15) by Feezy, on Flickr
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Old 01-24-2017, 01:05 PM
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Toda 50mm Sports Injection Kit, Toda Dry Carbon Surge Tank, and Toda ISCV

12.23.2016 - Toda Racing - Group (1) by Feezy, on Flickr

I talked above about a few reasons on why I chose to go with the Todas but I want to break down of the features that make this kit unique.

Fuel System
- Fuel rail accepts OEM injectors.- Fuel rail accepts OEM fuel delivery line.
- Front of the fuel rail is capped, so you can just run the FPR and the return off of the back of the feed. (Need to understand Pros/Cons)

Throttle
- Throttle linkage accepts OEM throttle cable.
- TPS is included with a harness to convert the OEM harness.

Coolant System
- Coolant bleed on front of manifold.
- Coolant neck angle is OEM and takes the OEM coolant fitting & sensor.
- No metal fitting in between the manifold and the coolant water neck like on the Haywards/Jenvey kits. (No chance for leaks)

Manifold & Vacuum
- Manifold is set up for multiple vacuum sources. No drilling required.- Extra vacuum sourced are capped or plugged with Allen bolts, you simply remove the cap or fitting to utilize the vacuum source.
- Multiple rows of vacuum sources allow you to run more than one vacuum system independent of each other. This is ideal for running an idle air control valve off of it's own system. (Surge Tank Optional)
- Allows you to plumb fresh air directly into the throttles.- Allows you to run a filter inline so you don't need to worry about filtering each individual throttle. (ISCV Optional)
- Comes with its own vacuum tube that is finished the same as the Toda fuel rail.
- Comes with an IACV off of a Toyota, uses the same plug as the OEM IACV.

Things that are needed.
- EMS: Current options are AEM Infinity or Haltech. I need more information on the pros/cons between the two, plus whatever sensors and harnesses are needed.
- Wideband 02 Sensor
- Fuel Pressure Regulator & FPR Sensor- Fuel Injectors (Are OEM enough, it seems like you would want something a few steps bigger)
- Fuel Injector Clips
- Vacuum block. Maybe, Maybe not. It's going to depend on how I set it all up. If I need one which one? I like the Urge block but it doesn't fit in the location it was designed for with the Todas dude to the way the throttle linkage mounts underneath the manifold.
- Braided Fuel Line
- Fuel Return Line- Fittings: AN6: Fuel Rail & FPR.
- Vacuum lines.
- Vacuum line fittings.
- OEM Coolant Neck Gasket.
- Intake Manifold Gasket.

Issues to Resolve

Lower Coolant Line
This line no longer has a home with ITBs. The last set up I vacuum capped it but I was never satisfied with that. Once of the members mentioned pluming it back into the system to avoid air bubbles. I'll need to look into that. I could also pull the fitting and tap and close it off permanently. I'm going to have to look into each option and see what works best for me.


Intake for Surge Tank
The surge tank is great, but it presents some new hurdles. I need to feed fresh air into it, and I'm not sure how I want to do it. I have a couple options as far as I see it.

Mugen Intake: A lot of the JDM companies seem to use the Mugen intake with a custom pipe or a Samco hose to attached to the intake. There are a few problems with this. The first is the weave on the Mugen doesn't match the Toda box, it's cosmetic but it still bothers me. The biggest issue is that the current available Mugen intakes open up behind the OEM bumper. If I ran a Mugen SS bumper I could utilize that location, but without it it's not what I want. The Mugen also needs a pipe to extend to the surge tank. The tank has a 90mm opening which is considerably larger than the OEM throttle size. Going with a Mugen v1 is also not an option. From the pictures I have seen of it the area that bends down into the bumper has a very tight pinch to it. That's going to be a restriction of airflow which I would like to avoid.

J's Racing Intake: J's sells a few different versions of their intake which allow me to pick and chose which features that I want. They have AP1 and AP2 options with the snorkel that reaches all the way down into the bumper opening, which is exactly what I want. The weave also matches the Toda box. The lung portion of the intake also has provisions for the OEM air pump lines as well as the line off the top of the valve cover. Alternatively I could use the AP2 version and delete the air pump as I don't believe it has the bungs. The problem with the J's is that the back half of the lung is sized specifically to fit on the OEM throttle in the OEM location. I'm not entirely sure it's going to line up with everything once I get everything installed and with it being thin carbon there isn't a lot of room for play. If I can get it lined up it's going to require a tapered coupler. The OEM throttle is something like 60/70mm so I'm looking at a 20/30mm taper right before the box, it will work, but it's not going to be ideal for power and it seems as if I'm putting all this work into the car then I should be conscious of things that will prevent the setup being optimal.
If the car was a RHD car J's racing makes an SPL induction system that has a tank and snorkel set up, but it doesn't fit the LHD cars. It's also more of a race car piece and the finish isn't as nice as the Toda box.

OEM Intake:The other option is to just utilize the OEM box with a custom pipe (similar to the Mugen) to connect to the surge tank. M&M Honda made one that would fit this application (and the Mugen Intake) but it's since been discontinued.

Custom Intake: I could work up something with some nice quality flexible hosing and route it somewhere with an appropriate sized filter. This seems like a reasonable and simple solution, however it's not going to look how I want.

I'd like the engine bay to look and feel complete and still have the OEM feel to it.At the end of the day I'm leaning towards the J's. I like the snorkel, I like the ability to mount all the hoses for the air pump should I decide to keep it installed. I've gotten my hands on a locals J's intake to check out, and the snorkel looks to be designed for a filter with a 4in opening in the back (I need to measure to confirm). That would lead me to believe the the included J's snorkel and filer would work for my application assuming I could modify or recreate the carbon lung to have an appropriately sized and place exit.

Fuel Injectors
I don't really know what I need here. I feel like I've seen guys talk about how the OEM injectors are reaching the higher end of their duty cycle at the higher end of our RPM range, so sticking with OEM might not be the best approach. I have no desire to run E85, so I doubt I need anything like 1000cc. Perhaps something somewhere between the two will work. I'm most likely going to need clips to run whatever injector I find. I would prefer the injector be black and fit in the fuel rail without adapters.

ECU
This seems like a toss up between the AEM Infinity and the equivalent Haltech offering. I'll pick up whatever sensors are needed for each set up, but I don't know which system is going to be better for my application. I do not need to smog my vehicles so that I not a concern for me, I simply want the car so function and behave as close to OEM as possible.
Researching this is exhausting, there is so much information all over the place when it comes to the ECUs. If anybody has any experience between the two, what they are capable of and the Pros/Cons to each I would really appreciate any input. Remember this is specifically for an ITB application should that make any difference.

Fuel System Configuration
I have seen people set up the fuel system multiple ways, as you can see in the Toda instruction manual they show you keeping the front of the rail pluged, and routing the back of the rail into the FPR, then out to the return. This is simple, requires the least amount of extras and looks the best. Is this ideal? I don't know. I assume there is a reason that you would want the FPR after the rail, but I need to look into this some more. I would like to set it up the way Toda suggests if there are no huge negatives.

Vacuum Lines & Routing
This is another black hole. How do I set all of this up? What's needed and what isn't? How much of a vacuum block do I need? Do I even need one? Is plumbing lines directly into sensors sufficient?

Toda shows that they have it set up with the brake booster plugged directly into the #4 runner. Is that good enough? I know when you open the throttles on ITBS you have no pretty much no vacuum, so it would make sense that as soon as you close the throttles you wouldn't want a vacuum block that needed to clear out before you had vacuum. Is running the brake booster into one runner acceptable for a street car? I do not want to get into a situation where I go for the brakes and they are not there.

If I do run the Brake booster directly into the #4 runner where do I get vacuum for the MAP and FPR? Can I just use the other three? Perhaps a vacuum block is necessary, which one do it want? Do I want a black with a large chamber, or is it better to go with one of the smaller chambers because as I understand it once you open the throttles you lose vacuum anyway. There are all things I need to figure out.

Regardless of how the other sensors are set up, the ISCV tank is going to plug directly into the four nipples on the end of the manifolds flange. The next step is figuring out how to mount the Iscv it self. I'm having some trouble figuring out how that's going to be done, but I'm sure that I can come up with some sort of solution.


Conclusion
I have lot of more questions and things that I want to figure out, but this feels like a good stopping point for now. I'm interested in hearing feedback and suggestions about any of the questions or items I listed above. I'm hoping that this thread can be much more comprehensive than my last ITB thread and can turn into a resource for people who are looking at ITBs and are trying to get an understanding of how and why things function so they can make the most educated decisions for their own set up.As always thank you for reading and I'm excited to hear your feedback and to get the project started.

Expect lots of updates and revisions over the course of this thread. I will try to keep the most current information at a high level here so someone who comes across this thread later has the important points right at the top.





Last edited by Feezy; 01-24-2017 at 01:18 PM.
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Old 01-24-2017, 01:28 PM
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Good luck and let me know if you need any tips Toda ITB quality is the best imo.

Wish id spotted that coolant bled screw before jacking the car up and fiddling with spillless funnels

I think the Js intake I have is better for flow on my 2.2, being a much larger intake diameter and capacity, but the Toda is a far better fit with those catches. I'm not too happy with having the bolt the Js one on from the inside as there's always risk of something coming loose.
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Old 01-24-2017, 11:27 PM
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Thanks for all the awesome pictures and a great writeup, should help a lot of people.
I'd like to ad that Jenvey does not have an extra metal fitting for the coolant neck, it does have horrible fitment though
Lower coolant line, I have just capped mine off and I don't see how it could cause any problems.

Really nice how the fuel rail can accept stock banjo fitting.
I agree it feels weird to put delivery, return line and fpr on the same side but in reality it should work just fine, I think MB runs it like this as well?
OEM injectors should be enough but it might be a good time to upgrade them with something newer and with better spray pattern.

There are so many choices for the intake setup, personally I'm going to use my CT box for cold air feed and I'll post some pictures of this later.
Here's some data on snorkel sizing and some nice remote filter solutions https://www.reverie.ltd.uk/canister_air_filter.php
You should also think about where to put the IAT and fuel purge fitting, either on surge tank or cold air pipe.
Also there is no way to keep the air pump working with the ITB setup since you are blocking off the port on the head.
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Old 01-25-2017, 01:28 AM
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Just WOW!

Please do before and after graphs as per last time, and if you can overlay onto your Jenvey plot as well, that would be awesome .

Last edited by Mike RT4; 01-25-2017 at 03:26 AM.
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Old 01-25-2017, 07:35 AM
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How much does something like this cost?
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Old 01-25-2017, 07:38 AM
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Very nice!

Is the surge tank inlet slanted downward or straight? How close do you think it'll be to the hood once it's closed?

You could also consider the Gruppe-M intake. They offered 1x1 plain weave.
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Old 01-25-2017, 09:44 AM
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Originally Posted by MB View Post
Good luck and let me know if you need any tips Toda ITB quality is the best imo.

Wish id spotted that coolant bled screw before jacking the car up and fiddling with spillless funnels

I think the Js intake I have is better for flow on my 2.2, being a much larger intake diameter and capacity, but the Toda is a far better fit with those catches. I'm not too happy with having the bolt the Js one on from the inside as there's always risk of something coming loose.
I agree with the intake, I do know that your J's set up has an even bigger inlet than my Toda box. I believe yours is 100mm.

If you don't mind I will be updating this with some of the information and pictures that you shared with me when we were discussing your vacuum system.

Originally Posted by flanders View Post
Thanks for all the awesome pictures and a great writeup, should help a lot of people.
I'd like to ad that Jenvey does not have an extra metal fitting for the coolant neck, it does have horrible fitment though
Lower coolant line, I have just capped mine off and I don't see how it could cause any problems.

Really nice how the fuel rail can accept stock banjo fitting.
I agree it feels weird to put delivery, return line and fpr on the same side but in reality it should work just fine, I think MB runs it like this as well?
OEM injectors should be enough but it might be a good time to upgrade them with something newer and with better spray pattern.

There are so many choices for the intake setup, personally I'm going to use my CT box for cold air feed and I'll post some pictures of this later.
Here's some data on snorkel sizing and some nice remote filter solutions https://www.reverie.ltd.uk/canister_air_filter.php
You should also think about where to put the IAT and fuel purge fitting, either on surge tank or cold air pipe.
Also there is no way to keep the air pump working with the ITB setup since you are blocking off the port on the head.
I didn't know that about the Jenvey, but that makes sense. I knew the neck angle was wrong and needed modification and I just assumed it was set up the same way as the Haywards.

With my intake I would prefer to have a scoop of some sort down in the bumper opening for a ram air effect. That seems ideal for this application. The link for the filers and their flow rates is the kind of stuff that I'm hoping to get with this thread, thank you!

I just need to find some nice fuel injectors that fit the fuel rail, with this rail accepting OEM injectors I imagine any injectors that also fit the OEM rail will also work. I'm a bit out of my element here, so I'll be looking into it.

I have been debating the IAT and the fuel vapor purge system. I know some of the ECUs aren't able to utilize the purge system so I do want to make sure I end up with a set up that can. I'll have to figure out where everything is going to go once I mock everything up and see where I can fit it. Most likely the IAT sensor is going to have to get mounted into the backing plate of the surge tank. That gives me the ability to remove the tank so I can get all that sweet induction noise when I want to go hood rat around town for an afternoon. In fact the tank quieting the ITBs down is one of the downsides of it as far as I'm concerned.

That's also a great call on the Air Pump system not functioning with the lack of the manifold. Maybe it's time to just remove it when I do the install. I did that last time, and I kind of don't really want to deal with pulling all sorts of crap out of the bay. Ideally I'd like the car to have an OEM feeling when you're looking at the engine bay as my car is a street car after all.

Originally Posted by Mike RT4 View Post
Just WOW!

Please do before and after graphs as per last time, and if you can overlay onto your Jenvey plot as well, that would be awesome .
That is the plan, however I would like to do it a bit better this time. If I have it my way I'll have full boltons on the car and have it tuned before I put the ITBs on the car. This will give me a better idea of the actual difference between the OEM manifold and the ITBs. Last time I went from full stock, to ITBs and a tune which didn't really show the whole story.

Originally Posted by f20kills View Post
How much does something like this cost?
It's quite expensive. I'd say that I'm already into it as much as a SOS supercharger kit would cost and I still have a lot of components I need to pick up. ECU, sensors, intake, tune, injectors, ect. This is definitely not a cost effective path if you're after lots of power for your dollar. I'm doing my best not to put everything into an Excel sheet to track the costs. This is more of a pursuit of passion for me as I've always wanted the Todas since I saw them in a HyperRev magazine way back when.

My last set up (Haywards) was a much more reasonable set up as far as costs go as I picked it up used. I mean, the surge tank for these things cost almost as much as I picked up the Haywards, FPR, Injectors, and vacuum block for last time.

Originally Posted by Orjinal View Post
Very nice!

Is the surge tank inlet slanted downward or straight? How close do you think it'll be to the hood once it's closed?

You could also consider the Gruppe-M intake. They offered 1x1 plain weave.
I don't know yet, I believe it comes straight out like the OEM manifold does. I'm not sure about hood clearance but I'm not worried about it as I've seen plenty of JDM cars run the set up with OEM hood.
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Old 01-25-2017, 09:52 AM
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No probs
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