Titanium Retainer Failures?
 

:eek:


I've tried to do some research on the subject (search not working) but on other boards have found only references to people knowing someone who has had titanium retainer failures allegedly. If anyone here can give me some first hand experience i'd really be interested. I might be mistaken
but I thought the retainers from my cbr 600 rr were also titanium. I just finished my motor for the
second time, and am approaching maybe 3000 miles. What I read here was that they are known
to last only until 12k miles. I still have my stock retainers, but also read that the ap2 retainers are better? Do they fit? If anyone has any info on the subject that would be great. I really am not interested in dropping a valve anytime soon. :p

p.s.

If I do end up switching back to stock retainers, does anyone know of a tool to do it while the heads on the car? I've seen the Toda one, but remembering back to
my machining days there were some universal jobbies I thought I remembered using.

Well heres the 411 that I got. I spoke to Race Engine Valves the company that
made my springs and retainers, and asked them about any failures or things I should be aware of. I was told that when properly installed, Titanium retainers have had no known failures due to heat as was suggested somewhere on this board. Let me rephrase by saying what I mean by heat that is produced within the valve cover. Also, using retainers not matched to your spring i.e. any binding at install will of course cause failure. Beyond this titanium retainers are softer than steel, (which I didn't know) and
unless properly matched to the springs can cause retainer failures. As a side note they directed me to this video on valve float. My take on this is that titanium retainers are fine as long as you are consistent in your maintenance and inspections. Thought it was interesting. Good guys.


http://www.revvalves.com/home.php



I then spoke to Larry over at ENDYN. He was also very receptive to my question.
He told me also that titanium is softer than steel, as used in the OEM retainers,
and that matching springs to retainers was important as well as of course was installation. I told him I was considering moving back to stock retainers simply because of the perceived longevity. He told me that he's seen more OEM
retainer failures (for all Honda motors including the F20/22) than anything.
And I'm pretty sure I've seen a few dropped valves on s2ki as well running OEM
retainers. What was interesting was that it's the keepers and retainers failing.
Anyways, a very nice guy and very knowledgeable about the f series.

As always i'll take all of this info with a grain of salt. My personal take on this is that
there is no unwritten limit to titanium. i.e fails at 12 thousand miles. However,
I will keep an eye out during my oil changes.

In the meantime just FYI, Larry does offer a mixed alloy retainer (coated I think?), using a different than stock keeper system as well as matched springs under unlimited warranty. Although that might apply to heads they built. That's
a pretty strong guarantee. I'm considering this. If anyones interested,
I'm thinking of getting the TODA tool so I don't have to pull the head off again.

Anyway,given the high revving nature of our engines, If I were a new owner
of an S, i'd probably put it on my maintenance list. Replace valve springs
retainers, keepers at 50k.

Food for thought.

p.m.

me if you might want to share the toda tool.


http://www.todaracing.com/en/product...c-changer.html

Ap2 retainers are a little more thicker, therefore less prone to cracking/bending.

Like you said Ti requires more maintenance and review for potential issues.

Is it worth it? If you're in this as a profession and open up your engine every season, then yeah why not.

For the average person, you won't see much in terms of performance without dishing out money for cams, ecu, exhaust, intake, TB etc...

This is my experience with TI retainers:

I run supertech valves, dual springs and TI retainers. After running this setup for 43k miles (100% street), I removed the head and asked Mike Laskey (Laskey Racing) to inspect the head, change the TI retainers and do a valve job. Mike reported the TI retainers were in perfect condition and did not need changed. He said if it was his money he would not replace them.

I had Mike change them anyways just for piece of mind.

cool, thanks for the info!

I used Titanium retainers with a Toda A series cam and dropped a valve after 30,000 miles. All the surviving intake retainers were worn and paper thin, but the exhaust retainers were fine. It was a disaster waiting to happen.

Larry at Endyn rebuilt the motor and said my retainers were a soft Titanium, and that valve float caused the wear problem. Makes sense - the intake has more lift than the exhaust and the valves are bigger.

Toda recommended stock intake springs on both exhaust and intake with the A series cams. They made good torque and hp but the valves floated. Larry said the Toda's have very aggresive ramps. I think you'll be fine with stock springs and Ti retainers if you're using the stock cam - valve float will kill the Ti retainers.

I kept the cams and used dual valve springs but a couple of intake lobes wiped out - the cams were too soft for anything but stock springs.

the wear happens when the retainer moves around in the spring.

for that reason always use matched springs and retainers. Valve float and miss-matched springs/retainers will wear out quickly.

was was posted before, if they are matched and installed properly you wont ever have any problems.

I've heard its a good thing to check them at 50k miles and if they are ok then, check them again at 75k miles. However, as we all know, modified engines get changed every 6 months or so. But to each his own, right?

Wow! That is great news!
I'm running the exact same set up and I was planning on changing them every 10K or so and inspecting them ever few track days.

I really hope that they are able to last that long....that would be excellent and a worthy investment!

Attachment 131386

-Rob