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URGE designs Project thread

Old 12-13-2015, 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by neurotic View Post
Originally Posted by Gernby' timestamp='1449937941' post='23826166
I really disagree with the red items above, since I think they are both related to your tune. The down-side of using the ignition tuning strategy that you used is that you wind up with ignition timing that is often below optimum. Basically, there is a very wide range of ignition advance on the VTEC cam that will make the same amount of power without knocking (about 6 degrees on my car). Many people target the top of that range, which is dangerous, but you've targeted the very bottom of it. This means that IAT and ECT compensations will often drop you below that range. My tuning strategy is to target the middle of that range, so that it performs more consistently regardless of IAT or ECT. That's also why I really, REALLY wish you had datalogs from the pulls. Dyno plots alone tell half the story...

BTW, you mentioned that you were doing some custom intake testing / tuning, but it wasn't clear whether the same intake setup was used for all the dynos you posted above. Were they all the same?
I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on tuning methodology. I prefer minimum timing advance for best torque (MBT), rather than any additional timing advance. With the relative lack of sophistication in aftermarket engine tuning (little instrumentation/control/data), I prefer the additional knock margin. I also think IAT, ECT, etc... compensations should affect output as that's how they provide protection.

Regarding the inconsistency with the URGE-Gernpipe, the car was previously very consistent; using the same tuning and testing methodology and shown by the 70EM dyno graph.

The same intake was used for runs 3-6 and 19-23. Some intermediate runs used different intakes, but they made larger sacrifices than gains.

Very much in agreement here. The better method would be to find where the power stops being made and work off that, while adjusting any compensations to change timing/fueling as needed. You'd be better off delaying the onset of compensation rather than it taking back timing in a range you've already needlessly increased loads on the piston/rod/bearing assembly.

This motor is very forgiving, at least in NA form. If you try this method on a few other makes of cars (especially with boost), things go boom very quickly.
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Old 12-13-2015, 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted by neurotic View Post
Originally Posted by Gernby' timestamp='1449954446' post='23826288
I can agree to disagree with you, and am not going to try changing your mind about it. However, I must do what I can to preserve the reputation of the gern-pipe. I believe your results have reduced sales, which is a shame.
It's only a shame if I've misrepresented the product. I have no motivation to do this, and have posted these results so other autocrossers can make an informed decision (which is very rare situation). I intend to use the exhaust as it made more power at some engine speeds, unless it pushes the car over site sound limits.

You're welcome to provide data supporting the marketing assertions/expectations. Although, thus far you've only blamed the tune rather than providing any new/additional information.

Originally Posted by Gernby View Post
So I'm directing my rest of this post to all the other participants in this thread. I've tuned over 140 S2000's on FlashPro, and am confident that the inconsistency between neurotic's runs is due to the tune. Out of those 140 S2000's I've tuned (all N.A. '06+ on FlashPro), I've never had a tune with so little ignition timing on the high cam as neurotic's tune.
As I mentioned in my emails, my car does run less high cam timing than most other S2000's tuned (using the same methodology) by my tuner. Notably, the URGE/Ger-pipe calibration had ~1.5° more timing advance than 70EM at/around peak power. Despite the lack of timing advance, the output is inline/better than other S2000's performance on my tuner's dyno, indicating the non-customary timing is not problematic.

How do my dyno results compare to the car's you've tuned?
neurotic, thank you for the time to update the thread and your feedback is valuable for the community. Once you get the car out of storage next Spring, we will pay for a tune Gernby tune to see if there is any optimization to be done. I bet we pick up a few HP.

For all S2KI members and S2000 owners, the Gern Pipe w/ T1R exhaust was designed to pic up midrange, not top end and with or with out correction we accomplished that on neurotics car.

Vs OEM exhaust we will pick up both Mid and Top range. Mid due to the Patented expansion chamber and top due to having straight though exhaust.

Vs aftermarket exhaust, we don't feel there is anything up top to gain and we have shown that on our dynos. The only gains to be had vs other Aftermarket exhaust are 5-10 ft lbs in the mid range and be with in 1 +/- ft lbs up top.

Just like every other NA car out there, the S2000 has a 2-3000 RPM range where it makes peak torque. The magic of the Gernpipe is that it extends that Peak torque range by another 2-3000 RPM range with a goal of providing 5000 RPM of peak torque. There will be other Gern Pipes coming out for other cars and where the S2000 torque is all top end and the Gern pipe fills in the mid, other cars have great mid range and the Gern pipe will fill in the top range. It really is the ONLY passive performance part on the market that can ~double the peak torque range for a vehicle.

We strongly believe in this product and will be making a 3rd batch once we run low on the 2nd batch. We produced 34 and have about 7 duals left. We are planning offering a Dual Titanium for weight savings and maybe some other variations.

Originally Posted by Capt. Midnight View Post
Sub'd. Just installed and tuned mine with the Midpipe/T1R dual and intake w/ Flashpro. Car feels significantly punchier and overall much quicker. Will upload Dynos if I can figure out how.
Cant wait for the dynos. Email us and we will post for you.
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Old 12-14-2015, 07:28 AM
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Don't forget, differences in drone is also a serious selling point for us old guys. Did you ever measure sound levels for the 70EM and HFC?
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Old 12-14-2015, 08:12 AM
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This is a really interesting discussion for me since I have a vested interest in the outcome. I have a Gernpipe+T1R ready to be installed that is replacing a 70mm exhaust as well. I also need to find time to send my datalogs to Gernby after the install for an e-tune.
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Old 12-14-2015, 10:19 AM
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Originally Posted by neurotic View Post
How do my dyno results compare to the car's you've tuned?

That's a really difficult question to answer in a way that's meaningful. I'm an eTuner, and the DynoJet results I've seen are just the ones some clients send to me after the tunes are complete. The cars I've tuned on a DynoJet are my project cars, which have spent many, many hours on a handfull of DynoJets and DynoCom's.

When you posted the list of cooling times below, it wasn't clear what happened to runs 01-02, and it wasn't clear if the car was idling during cool-down, or if it was actually shut off. What I've always seen is that the cool-down time at the beginning of a dyno session is pretty meaningless, since you actually WANT the drivetrain to heat up. My best pulls have always been the 3rd or 4th. However, after that, it's so heat-soaked that I would have to let it sit for a LONG time between pulls to match that 3rd or 4th.

The inconsistent cool-downs between the 70EM pulls further supports my belief that the inconsistencies in the Gern-Pipe pulls were NOT caused by the gern-pipe. If your cool-down times are inconsistent, your IAT's and ECT's will be different, which will impact results, especially when tuned with your ignition tuning methodology. If the tune had another +1-1.5 degrees of "buffer" advance (still very safe), the IAT and ECT compensations wouldn't cause such inconsistent results.

Again, that's why datalogs from the FlashPro would be so helpful in clearing this up. I suspect that runs 3-5 actually had more ignition advance (after IAT and ECT compensations) than the later runs.

Originally Posted by neurotic
The following runs have the same tune/calibration. 'Cooling' time prior to each run:
[70EM] 03: 4 min
[70EM] 04: 5 min
[70EM] 05: 3 min
[URGE] 19: 7 min
[URGE] 20: 3.5 min
[URGE] 21: 13 min (why I didn't use it for the comparison)
[URGE] 22: 8 min
[URGE] 23: 1 min
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Old 12-18-2015, 07:50 PM
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Has there been any update on the ITB's?
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Old 12-19-2015, 07:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Gernby View Post
Originally Posted by neurotic' timestamp='1450030690' post='23826766

How do my dyno results compare to the car's you've tuned?
That's a really difficult question to answer in a way that's meaningful. I'm an eTuner, and the DynoJet results I've seen are just the ones some clients send to me after the tunes are complete. The cars I've tuned on a DynoJet are my project cars, which have spent many, many hours on a handfull of DynoJets and DynoCom's.
Ok, so how do the numbers compare?

Originally Posted by Gernby View Post
When you posted the list of cooling times below, it wasn't clear what happened to runs 01-02, and it wasn't clear if the car was idling during cool-down, or if it was actually shut off. What I've always seen is that the cool-down time at the beginning of a dyno session is pretty meaningless, since you actually WANT the drivetrain to heat up. My best pulls have always been the 3rd or 4th. However, after that, it's so heat-soaked that I would have to let it sit for a LONG time between pulls to match that 3rd or 4th.
Runs 1&2 were used to touch up the fuel map; peak uncorrected powers: 1: 217.3 & 2: 217.7. I've also noticed initial runs are typically lower than subsequent runs depending upon arrival condition. My car was previously very consistent once everything was warm, and the 3+ min. cooling periods were sufficient to avoid heat soak.

Originally Posted by Gernby View Post
The inconsistent cool-downs between the 70EM pulls further supports my belief that the inconsistencies in the Gern-Pipe pulls were NOT caused by the gern-pipe. If your cool-down times are inconsistent, your IAT's and ECT's will be different, which will impact results, especially when tuned with your ignition tuning methodology. If the tune had another +1-1.5 degrees of "buffer" advance (still very safe), the IAT and ECT compensations wouldn't cause such inconsistent results.

Again, that's why datalogs from the FlashPro would be so helpful in clearing this up. I suspect that runs 3-5 actually had more ignition advance (after IAT and ECT compensations) than the later runs.

Originally Posted by neurotic
The following runs have the same tune/calibration. 'Cooling' time prior to each run:
[70EM] 03: 4 min
[70EM] 04: 5 min
[70EM] 05: 3 min
[URGE] 19: 7 min
[URGE] 20: 3.5 min
[URGE] 21: 13 min (why I didn't use it for the comparison)
[URGE] 22: 8 min
[URGE] 23: 1 min
I doubt either IAT or ECT corrections would've pulled significant timing. If this method activated the IAT/ECT corrections, there would be little consistency in any tests.

Regardless, I think the Gern-pipe does change breathing. Although, the affect is not necessarily additive to other breathing modifications.
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Old 12-19-2015, 08:16 AM
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Originally Posted by S2K Al View Post
Has there been any update on the ITB's?
DBW we will do a beta test in the spring with 3 customer to determine if they can manage the install and adjustments on their own. The problem is the sensitivity of the OEM DBW controller. Gernby has installed 2 sets and got them to work, but he is a mad scientist. Both sets required a lot of adjustment but work everyday, all day long. I have 1-2 customers that have fabrication capability so I trust they can make the adjustments. You shouldn't need to fabricate anything, but the skill set helps with making the adjustments.

We are working on a Medusa runner system that should be pretty special and add 5-20 hp everywhere.

To be honest both projects were put on hold in 2015 as it took a lot of work to get the Gern Pipe, Unicorn Header and Flow rear rotors out the door.

We will refocus on ITBs in 16....
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Old 12-19-2015, 04:14 PM
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Neurotic, your tune pulls 1 degree of timing for every 9 degrees of IAT above 107F, and it pulls 0.7 degrees for every 10 degrees of ECT above 203F. Your car was on the dyno for a long time, and did a lot of pulls. I don't know how much time you've spent on dynos, but I've spent a LOT of time on them. When an S2000 has done 5 or more pulls, heat soak becomes a HUGE issue, and 3-5 minutes between pulls does NOT compensate for it, ESPECIALLY if the car is idling. At idle, the temps will climb for several minutes after a pull.
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Old 12-19-2015, 04:28 PM
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Originally Posted by neurotic View Post
Ok, so how do the numbers compare?
Your peak power is at or above anything I've personally seen in years on my S2000 (even with ITB's). I went over 220 on a dynojet 4 years ago, but that was SAE corrected. I suspect that the dynojet you used might read high, considering your tune.

Originally Posted by neurotic View Post
Regardless, I think the Gern-pipe does change breathing. Although, the affect is not necessarily additive to other breathing modifications.
I agree with this 100%, and will say that it would be true for every good power adder available. A normally aspirated motor is truly an accoustic instrument, and the interaction between parts is unpredictable. While doing ITB and exhaust development over the last couple years (EDIT: simultaneously on the K24), I found that every change in the exhaust required some change to the ITBs. Every time I changed a diameter or length on 1 side, I had to change the diameter or length on the other side, or I would lose power. That's why there is so much confusion and disagreement on the interweb about which intake or exhaust is the best, since they really have to be considered together.

That leads to another question about your intake setup. Was your intake setup "dialed in" using the previous exhaust, or the new exhaust? If so, then I suggest dialing it in again, since the optimal length will be different.
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