285f/285r CCW Corsair C10 Notes
08-19-2008, 08:04 PM
#1
Thread Starter
285f/285r CCW Corsair C10 Notes
Because I haven't found all this info conveniently located in one place, here are my notes on stuffing 10" front / 10.5" rear CCW Corsair C10s under a S2000 prepped for SM2:
Rear is a synch. 10.5" CCW wheel 8.5" backspacing, 295/30/18 Hoosier A6. Solved. Only minor rolling of fender was done earlier to fit 275/40/17 on Volk CE28ns (17x9, 63 ET) which worked fine as well.
Front is a tradeoff between turning radius and fitting the wheels underneath the fenders. Since I'm willing to trade off some steering lock, here are two pics and a link to many more (and captions / setup info) I took of my car this afternoon. I'll likely be going to 0.5" - 0.65" spacer to net 7.85 - 7.9" backspacing which is what I'd originally calculated thanks to some PMs from Jason U and his famous drool-worthy BSP setup.
Link to CCW 10" 285 Setup Notes and Pics
Wheels - Front
CCW Corsair C10s. For me, the 10s in front with an 8.5 backspace and either 1.0" spacer (stiff springs and hard-core rolling of front fenders works well enough). IF you have some minor rubbing on outboard edges, roll the fenders a bit more, increase the spring rate a bit, or MAYBE (assuming you don't do full-lock turns -- this means 3 point turns in the pits) consider 0.5" spacer instead of 1.0" spacer. YMMV depending on how gimmicky your track / auto-x course designers are. I'm keeping both sets of spacers just in case. The 0.5s also fit well with stock 17" wheels now that the fenders are rolled heavily. People don't notice my rolled fenders until I show them. I use 285/30/18 Hoosier A6s up front.
Wheels - Rear
Corsair C10s, and I compromised here. I went 10.5" width with 8.5" backspacing and no spacer. The fit on inboard side was perfect all the way through the travel. Had 19 mm of space on outboard edges (granted thats with some minor rolling compared to up front). Figured the extra 12.5 mm of wheel and a 295/30/18 A6 (on Hoosier A6s, the 295s are the same width as 285s, but are taller than the 285s, which helps stretch 2nd gear on faster courses). The 10.5" wheel will also allow you to fit a 315 if you want to get tough with the fender roll or you elect to flare. Hats off to the guys who are tucking 11" wheels front and rear and I'm sure it can be done. I was a little more conservative here.
Dampers
Moton Club Sports from TC Design. Tony was hugely helpful and very patient with all the questions of a guy who's bought whole cars for less than the price of "grown up" shocks.
The Motons are gorgeous, well-machined pieces and you will not regret getting them.
Springs
Recommend 2.25" ID, 8" length Hypercoil main springs front and rear. No interferenece with control arms, and the 6" length up front was not long enough.
I'm using Hypercoil's helper springs with the Genesis Technologies Helper Spring Guides. I installed the Genesis guide such that the outer lip is "containing" the helper spring's outside edge (and also avoids hitting the Moton collars at full compression) -- the guide has the inner lip that centers the main 8" spring. I have the bronze Moton collar next to last in the stack, and the black locking collar with its machined edge facing upwards. Nice thing about the helper springs are that you can assemble the coil-over without need of a spring compressor. You just have the collars low, get it all together, leave the top nut a little loose so you can rotate the hats to fit the bolt holes thru the body, and raise the collars to a decent level to start playing with your ride height.
Ride Height
I'm targeting near factory ride height, roughly 25 1/16" front and rear as measured from fender lip's bottom edge to the pavement, front and rear, using 225/40/17 fronts and 255/40/17 rear Neova AD07 tires for street driving. This means approx 122 threads up from the bottom of the shock body for the fronts, and 35 threads from the bottom out back -- just a starting point.
Spring Rates
YMMV here depending on the damper setup. I'm trying 900 lb/in front and 700 lb/in rear, per Jason's advice. The car rides on the street (dampers set on 2-3 steps from softest setting) just as well as a stock S2000, but with less body roll. It is not harsh. At. All. I'm almost considering 1000 lb/in springs up front if the car has too much tail-happiness in the 900/700 config. Really good improvement in turn-in from my old setup now that I'm not on bump stops with grippy A6 275/17s up front. Also running the coaxial Comptech front bar on the middle setting for now, and the stock 2002 year S2000 rear bar.
Coil-over Hats / Top Mounts
No Holy Wars here, as everyone has different design goals. The S2000 hat when you look at it actually is an assembly of two huge metal washers that "sandwich" a sleeve in which the damper rod resides. Thus, non-idiots shouldn't be at risk of over-tightening / distorting the stock top mounts.
SPOILER ALERT - you will need to find a machine shop that can press out the stock sleeves since they're too small to accommodate the Moton damper rods. My shop froze then drilled the rubber to a proper diameter to accommodate new sleeves that fit perfectly around the Moton damper rods. Figure $130 or so for very conscientious work to be a drop in the bucket and don't scrimp here. You're doing $4K in dampers, springs, helpers, guides, hole saws, etc. to do it right.
Rear Trunk Floor Holes (accommodates reservoir mounting in trunk)
2.75" hole saw with mandrel from Home Depot ~ $26. Borrow or buy a 90 degree drill if you want to locate the holes as far forward and close to the shock tower as possible. Wear earplugs, and be patient. Finished product will be awesome. Don't forget to get some aluminum sheet to cover the holes and some RTV to seal up the gaps / protect the hoses (wrap the hoses too, just to be safe, where they go through the aluminum covers).
Camber
You may need a fair amount of camber to get the top of the tire underneath the fender. At 25" ride height and ~ -1.7 degrees front camber, I was close. I elected to do the $160 SPC adjustable camber ball joints to get me to -2.8 up front while retaining 6+ degrees of caster. Also replaced $180 worth of compliance bushings and lower control arm bushings (from King Motorsport) and will be having my control arm mount welds reinforced since mine's an AP1. Out back, I'm shooting for 2.8 - 3 degrees and .25 or so toe-in. Roughly $300 to install the ball joints and bushings (it's still in the 90s here in TX and I don't have the presses or time away from my day job to do this work currently)
All of this damper work is intimidatingly expensive to a guy who grew up thinking $120 headers were a decadent treat for his first car. But it is worth it. Figure $4500 if you do your own labor/install and take your time on the dampers. And another $4350 or so for wheels. Considering that the contact patch is the only thing keeping you from skidding off sideways, having huge tires and really nice springs/shocks should really transform the car.
CCW helped me considerably getting this dialed in. They also helped the driver of the car below get her setup to work properly (added neg camber up front, used a little different spacer than the 1" spacer inside a 8.5" backspaced 10" wheel shown below. They have reduced turning radius (to avoid tire to A-arm and coil-over interference), but have been able to eliminate the huge gap up front.
Stanford
Rear is a synch. 10.5" CCW wheel 8.5" backspacing, 295/30/18 Hoosier A6. Solved. Only minor rolling of fender was done earlier to fit 275/40/17 on Volk CE28ns (17x9, 63 ET) which worked fine as well.
Front is a tradeoff between turning radius and fitting the wheels underneath the fenders. Since I'm willing to trade off some steering lock, here are two pics and a link to many more (and captions / setup info) I took of my car this afternoon. I'll likely be going to 0.5" - 0.65" spacer to net 7.85 - 7.9" backspacing which is what I'd originally calculated thanks to some PMs from Jason U and his famous drool-worthy BSP setup.
Link to CCW 10" 285 Setup Notes and Pics
Wheels - Front
CCW Corsair C10s. For me, the 10s in front with an 8.5 backspace and either 1.0" spacer (stiff springs and hard-core rolling of front fenders works well enough). IF you have some minor rubbing on outboard edges, roll the fenders a bit more, increase the spring rate a bit, or MAYBE (assuming you don't do full-lock turns -- this means 3 point turns in the pits) consider 0.5" spacer instead of 1.0" spacer. YMMV depending on how gimmicky your track / auto-x course designers are. I'm keeping both sets of spacers just in case. The 0.5s also fit well with stock 17" wheels now that the fenders are rolled heavily. People don't notice my rolled fenders until I show them. I use 285/30/18 Hoosier A6s up front.
Wheels - Rear
Corsair C10s, and I compromised here. I went 10.5" width with 8.5" backspacing and no spacer. The fit on inboard side was perfect all the way through the travel. Had 19 mm of space on outboard edges (granted thats with some minor rolling compared to up front). Figured the extra 12.5 mm of wheel and a 295/30/18 A6 (on Hoosier A6s, the 295s are the same width as 285s, but are taller than the 285s, which helps stretch 2nd gear on faster courses). The 10.5" wheel will also allow you to fit a 315 if you want to get tough with the fender roll or you elect to flare. Hats off to the guys who are tucking 11" wheels front and rear and I'm sure it can be done. I was a little more conservative here.
Dampers
Moton Club Sports from TC Design. Tony was hugely helpful and very patient with all the questions of a guy who's bought whole cars for less than the price of "grown up" shocks.
The Motons are gorgeous, well-machined pieces and you will not regret getting them. Springs
Recommend 2.25" ID, 8" length Hypercoil main springs front and rear. No interferenece with control arms, and the 6" length up front was not long enough.
I'm using Hypercoil's helper springs with the Genesis Technologies Helper Spring Guides. I installed the Genesis guide such that the outer lip is "containing" the helper spring's outside edge (and also avoids hitting the Moton collars at full compression) -- the guide has the inner lip that centers the main 8" spring. I have the bronze Moton collar next to last in the stack, and the black locking collar with its machined edge facing upwards. Nice thing about the helper springs are that you can assemble the coil-over without need of a spring compressor. You just have the collars low, get it all together, leave the top nut a little loose so you can rotate the hats to fit the bolt holes thru the body, and raise the collars to a decent level to start playing with your ride height.
Ride Height
I'm targeting near factory ride height, roughly 25 1/16" front and rear as measured from fender lip's bottom edge to the pavement, front and rear, using 225/40/17 fronts and 255/40/17 rear Neova AD07 tires for street driving. This means approx 122 threads up from the bottom of the shock body for the fronts, and 35 threads from the bottom out back -- just a starting point.
Spring Rates
YMMV here depending on the damper setup. I'm trying 900 lb/in front and 700 lb/in rear, per Jason's advice. The car rides on the street (dampers set on 2-3 steps from softest setting) just as well as a stock S2000, but with less body roll. It is not harsh. At. All. I'm almost considering 1000 lb/in springs up front if the car has too much tail-happiness in the 900/700 config. Really good improvement in turn-in from my old setup now that I'm not on bump stops with grippy A6 275/17s up front. Also running the coaxial Comptech front bar on the middle setting for now, and the stock 2002 year S2000 rear bar.
Coil-over Hats / Top Mounts
No Holy Wars here, as everyone has different design goals. The S2000 hat when you look at it actually is an assembly of two huge metal washers that "sandwich" a sleeve in which the damper rod resides. Thus, non-idiots shouldn't be at risk of over-tightening / distorting the stock top mounts.
SPOILER ALERT - you will need to find a machine shop that can press out the stock sleeves since they're too small to accommodate the Moton damper rods. My shop froze then drilled the rubber to a proper diameter to accommodate new sleeves that fit perfectly around the Moton damper rods. Figure $130 or so for very conscientious work to be a drop in the bucket and don't scrimp here. You're doing $4K in dampers, springs, helpers, guides, hole saws, etc. to do it right.
Rear Trunk Floor Holes (accommodates reservoir mounting in trunk)
2.75" hole saw with mandrel from Home Depot ~ $26. Borrow or buy a 90 degree drill if you want to locate the holes as far forward and close to the shock tower as possible. Wear earplugs, and be patient. Finished product will be awesome. Don't forget to get some aluminum sheet to cover the holes and some RTV to seal up the gaps / protect the hoses (wrap the hoses too, just to be safe, where they go through the aluminum covers).
Camber
You may need a fair amount of camber to get the top of the tire underneath the fender. At 25" ride height and ~ -1.7 degrees front camber, I was close. I elected to do the $160 SPC adjustable camber ball joints to get me to -2.8 up front while retaining 6+ degrees of caster. Also replaced $180 worth of compliance bushings and lower control arm bushings (from King Motorsport) and will be having my control arm mount welds reinforced since mine's an AP1. Out back, I'm shooting for 2.8 - 3 degrees and .25 or so toe-in. Roughly $300 to install the ball joints and bushings (it's still in the 90s here in TX and I don't have the presses or time away from my day job to do this work currently)
All of this damper work is intimidatingly expensive to a guy who grew up thinking $120 headers were a decadent treat for his first car. But it is worth it. Figure $4500 if you do your own labor/install and take your time on the dampers. And another $4350 or so for wheels. Considering that the contact patch is the only thing keeping you from skidding off sideways, having huge tires and really nice springs/shocks should really transform the car.
- CCW 18x10" front / 18.10.5" rear Corsair Wheels & Hoosier A6 285/30/18 Tires front with 295/30/18 rear: $4300
- Fender rolling (professional, they're going to pull out all stops to make it right & look decent): $200 ish
- Camber adjuster type ball joints: $165-ish + installation of ~ 150
- ARP front studs ($60 from King, + 110 for new front bearings since you risk damage pressing studs on/off and the car has 50K on it anyway + $300 labor)
- ARP rear studs ($60 from King, + 110 for new front bearings since you risk damage pressing studs on/off and the car has 50K on it anyway + $300 labor)
- Springs & dampers: $4500 -ish (Moton 2 ways & Hypercoils, 900 lb/in front, 700 rear, Comptech adjustable bar front, stock 2002 bar rear)
- Getting a machine shop to machine the stock top hats (very little rubber up there anyway) - $130
- Currently -1.5 deg F 0.0 toe out / -2.0 deg R negative camber, 0.3 toe in rear. Planning to go to -2.8 deg negative in front and ~ -3.0 in rear, maybe .27 toe in for rear
CCW helped me considerably getting this dialed in. They also helped the driver of the car below get her setup to work properly (added neg camber up front, used a little different spacer than the 1" spacer inside a 8.5" backspaced 10" wheel shown below. They have reduced turning radius (to avoid tire to A-arm and coil-over interference), but have been able to eliminate the huge gap up front.
Stanford
08-19-2008, 08:31 PM
#2
Registered User
Theis is going to handle beautifully, I love the look of the wheels too!
What about a BSK? Going w/ the TC Designs? In my experience, depending on how much you lower the car (mine is ~1.3" front, 1.5" rear), it is hard to dial toe in in the rear w/o going w/ major camber, and even then bump steer becomes very noticable on bumpy concrete, or even asphalt
What about a BSK? Going w/ the TC Designs? In my experience, depending on how much you lower the car (mine is ~1.3" front, 1.5" rear), it is hard to dial toe in in the rear w/o going w/ major camber, and even then bump steer becomes very noticable on bumpy concrete, or even asphalt
08-19-2008, 08:42 PM
#3
Beautiful. Couldn't they get the backspacing right so that the use of spacers isn't required? I remember reading in the SCCA forums about somebody running 18x11 CCW classics with a 8.25 backspacing on slightly modified S2000 fenders.
08-19-2008, 09:41 PM
#4
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Also remember for road racing the cambers will be different which can change what is required for backspace. We run somewhere around 3.5 degrees neative in the front and 2.5 negative in the rear.
You start rubbing a lot sooner in the inside both front and rear due to the camber.
Great write up and pics btw.
You start rubbing a lot sooner in the inside both front and rear due to the camber.
Great write up and pics btw.
08-19-2008, 09:50 PM
#5
Administrator
Originally Posted by eurotrashdtm,Aug 19 2008, 08:42 PM
Beautiful. Couldn't they get the backspacing right so that the use of spacers isn't required? I remember reading in the SCCA forums about somebody running 18x11 CCW classics with a 8.25 backspacing on slightly modified S2000 fenders.
I've been running CCW 18x10 1pcs all season without any problems. John should have known by now how to make them fit.
*shrug*
08-19-2008, 10:22 PM
#7
Thread Starter
Thanks, Gents. Ry, the car looks both dialed and menacing. Are your 18x10s using 8.5" backspacing front/rear? If so, the 1" spacer up front makes it a 7.5" backspace, right? The head scratcher for me is if your car has that setup, why does the person's car (top of my post) look so different (she has confirmed 8.5" backspace on all 4, with 1" spacer up front)? Strange things afoot at the Circle K.
Definitely with you guys on the camber being able to pull the outboard upper edge in and then having to manage the inboard edge issues. I'm thinking a big hammer will be in order for some of the inboard rub points.
What kind of spring rate and natural frequencies are you guys looking at? Since I drive mine on the street a fair amount, I was thinking the 925 lb/in front / 825 lb/in rear (spring rate, not wheel rate) seemed like a reasonable compromise.
Any recommendations on where to get Motons (and whether Club Sports are "close enough" or do you guys recommend Penske doubles or Ohlins?
Thanks again. I've learned tons from what you guys have shared in the past couple of years. Really appreciate you and Spaf pioneering 285+ sized Stick-Um for the S.
Best,
Stanford
Definitely with you guys on the camber being able to pull the outboard upper edge in and then having to manage the inboard edge issues. I'm thinking a big hammer will be in order for some of the inboard rub points.
What kind of spring rate and natural frequencies are you guys looking at? Since I drive mine on the street a fair amount, I was thinking the 925 lb/in front / 825 lb/in rear (spring rate, not wheel rate) seemed like a reasonable compromise.
Any recommendations on where to get Motons (and whether Club Sports are "close enough" or do you guys recommend Penske doubles or Ohlins?
Thanks again. I've learned tons from what you guys have shared in the past couple of years. Really appreciate you and Spaf pioneering 285+ sized Stick-Um for the S.
Best,
Stanford
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08-19-2008, 10:31 PM
#8
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I think the club sports are "good enough" even though I'm running triple Motons.
Spring rates are a bit of conjecture. I'll let Ry chime in with his rates if he wishes. I know he runs a different setup than I do.
I have found 900F with a Saner bar and 950 Rear with no bar to have the best handling for me. If I go any higher than that, the car just doesn't feel good, and the grip seems to go off a bit. I'm also running a Kaaz diff FWIW.
I would look at TCDesign or SOS for the Motons. Both have S2k fitments.
7.5" backspace front seems about right. I run 7 3/8. I think the camber has a lot to do with it. Almost 4 degrees of camber has a big effect, especially with the shorter upper arm. (Instead of the longer lower...)
Bill
Spring rates are a bit of conjecture. I'll let Ry chime in with his rates if he wishes. I know he runs a different setup than I do.
I have found 900F with a Saner bar and 950 Rear with no bar to have the best handling for me. If I go any higher than that, the car just doesn't feel good, and the grip seems to go off a bit. I'm also running a Kaaz diff FWIW.
I would look at TCDesign or SOS for the Motons. Both have S2k fitments.
7.5" backspace front seems about right. I run 7 3/8. I think the camber has a lot to do with it. Almost 4 degrees of camber has a big effect, especially with the shorter upper arm. (Instead of the longer lower...)
Bill
08-19-2008, 11:09 PM
#9
Thread Starter
Thanks -- really appreciate the tip on TC Design. Do you guys run their upper A-arms as well, and if so do you wind up increasing the steering wheel lock-to-lock limits vs. stock A-arms as a result (due to less interference btwn wheel and A-arm)?
If so, that'd be another reason for me to choose those A-arms vs. just doing the SPC adjustable ball joints. For those of you who run the upper A-arms from TC Design, do you have any issues with Heim joint noise / rattling (esp. if you drive the car on the street occasionally).
Thanks again,
Stanford
If so, that'd be another reason for me to choose those A-arms vs. just doing the SPC adjustable ball joints. For those of you who run the upper A-arms from TC Design, do you have any issues with Heim joint noise / rattling (esp. if you drive the car on the street occasionally).
Thanks again,
Stanford
08-19-2008, 11:44 PM
#10
Originally Posted by stantaur,Aug 19 2008, 11:09 PM
If so, that'd be another reason for me to choose those A-arms vs. just doing the SPC adjustable ball joints. For those of you who run the upper A-arms from TC Design, do you have any issues with Heim joint noise / rattling (esp. if you drive the car on the street occasionally).
Thanks again,
Stanford
Thanks again,
Stanford