AP2 as a driver's car?
12-03-2005, 12:11 AM
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AP2 as a driver's car?
Search doesn't appear to be working for me, so I apologize if this has been covered. I imagine there are tidbits here and there throughout the forum. Perhaps at the very least this thread could provide a summary on the subject. I'm posting this in the Racing forum because this is where I think I'll get the most informed feedback. 
I may be able to get into an S2000 in '06 [vowed to own one after my first drive at SOWS back in '03
], and am not quite sure which to pursue. Since that time I've driven two '01s around town and in some mountain roads. Still in love with the car.
The thing that really gets me with the AP1 is that it seems to be just about the purest expression of "driver's car" on the road. When watching in-car videos of talented drivers in this car I am amazed at how the rear end of the car is so willing to rotate, and in a very progressive manner. It gets my heart rate up every time, seeing such precision. What I see in AP1 videos matches my personal experiences with the car's behavior.
I've been unable to find any AP2 in-car footage so I don't have anything to base its fun quotient on. Nor do any AP2s show up at the local autocross.
There are a few things I can recall that, on paper, suggest the AP2 might have lost a bit of its "directness" with the driver. Though I hear it's ultimately a bit faster than an AP1 in most situations.
* The AP2 has a slower steering ratio -- one of the superlative experiences of the AP1 is never having to take my hands off 9 and 3 for any kind of spirited driving. I tire of shuffle-steering my MR2 everywhere, so this is a big thing to me.
* IIRC the AP2 uses a valve in the clutch hydraulics to reduce shock to the drivetrain. The AP1 has a wonderfully direct clutch feel, and very positive engagement of each successive gear. I hope this hasn't been diminished at all.
* Suspension. Early car mag reviews said the AP2 is more balanced, though I personally quite enjoy the "twitchy" AP1. Does the AP2 control roll as well as the AP1, and is the rear end as willing to rotate progressively on the power? I love to exit turns with the steering wheel pointed straight from the apex to the track-out point.
* From what I can tell the AP2 powerband looks very narrow (6000rpm to ~8200rpm?). Do the new gear ratios keep the car in VTEC range at all speeds? I thought the AP1 gearing was fantastic, even if 1st gear was too long for a good launch out of the hole. Sometimes I wonder if the AP2 gearing is too short in lower gears, since more time will be spent shifting (thus not accelerating) than in the AP1.
There may be other changes I'm forgetting. It's been a while since I did my research binge on the upcoming (at the time) AP2.
After writing all this I realize it sounds like I should simply go for an AP1. But the added torque/power and stronger diff of the AP2 makes a strong case for consideration, not to mention possibly greater potential in A-Stock Solo2.
What's the verdict on the AP2 as a pure driver's car compared to the AP1? Tell me why it is or is not as much fun. On the track, dodging cones, driving in the mountains, etc.
I may be able to get into an S2000 in '06 [vowed to own one after my first drive at SOWS back in '03
], and am not quite sure which to pursue. Since that time I've driven two '01s around town and in some mountain roads. Still in love with the car. The thing that really gets me with the AP1 is that it seems to be just about the purest expression of "driver's car" on the road. When watching in-car videos of talented drivers in this car I am amazed at how the rear end of the car is so willing to rotate, and in a very progressive manner. It gets my heart rate up every time, seeing such precision. What I see in AP1 videos matches my personal experiences with the car's behavior.
I've been unable to find any AP2 in-car footage so I don't have anything to base its fun quotient on. Nor do any AP2s show up at the local autocross.
There are a few things I can recall that, on paper, suggest the AP2 might have lost a bit of its "directness" with the driver. Though I hear it's ultimately a bit faster than an AP1 in most situations.
* The AP2 has a slower steering ratio -- one of the superlative experiences of the AP1 is never having to take my hands off 9 and 3 for any kind of spirited driving. I tire of shuffle-steering my MR2 everywhere, so this is a big thing to me.
* IIRC the AP2 uses a valve in the clutch hydraulics to reduce shock to the drivetrain. The AP1 has a wonderfully direct clutch feel, and very positive engagement of each successive gear. I hope this hasn't been diminished at all.
* Suspension. Early car mag reviews said the AP2 is more balanced, though I personally quite enjoy the "twitchy" AP1. Does the AP2 control roll as well as the AP1, and is the rear end as willing to rotate progressively on the power? I love to exit turns with the steering wheel pointed straight from the apex to the track-out point.
* From what I can tell the AP2 powerband looks very narrow (6000rpm to ~8200rpm?). Do the new gear ratios keep the car in VTEC range at all speeds? I thought the AP1 gearing was fantastic, even if 1st gear was too long for a good launch out of the hole. Sometimes I wonder if the AP2 gearing is too short in lower gears, since more time will be spent shifting (thus not accelerating) than in the AP1.
There may be other changes I'm forgetting. It's been a while since I did my research binge on the upcoming (at the time) AP2.
After writing all this I realize it sounds like I should simply go for an AP1. But the added torque/power and stronger diff of the AP2 makes a strong case for consideration, not to mention possibly greater potential in A-Stock Solo2.
What's the verdict on the AP2 as a pure driver's car compared to the AP1? Tell me why it is or is not as much fun.
On the track, dodging cones, driving in the mountains, etc.
12-03-2005, 08:01 AM
#2
Hi Bryan, I didn't drive the AP1 extensively enough to make a comparison, but can tell you that I'm very satisfied with the AP2. The steering is nice -- I don't notice the "slower" ratio making me do anything I didn't do in my PS-equipped Miata. Steering feel is pretty good. I've heard the power steering is less boosted than in the earlier cars. Maybe?
I'm not so happy with the clutch damper. Clutch behavior is fine in normal circumstances, but you need to be more careful getting the timing/revs right when you let out the clutch when shifting quickly at full throttle.
Suspension seems okay to me, especially with Penskes.
If you come down to Marina tomorrow during the afternoon session, I can give you a ride.
I'm not so happy with the clutch damper. Clutch behavior is fine in normal circumstances, but you need to be more careful getting the timing/revs right when you let out the clutch when shifting quickly at full throttle.
Suspension seems okay to me, especially with Penskes.
If you come down to Marina tomorrow during the afternoon session, I can give you a ride.
12-03-2005, 10:39 AM
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I got an 04 two years ago, but did drive an 01 for comparison. My test drive for both didn't test much of the handling, mainly just a few stoplights. The major difference was the engine. The 01 is more fun to drive fast. At 6k, it kicks into overdrive to the 9k redline. The feeling was absolutely amazing. The 04 pulls more from 3k and really gets going at 6k. Since the car has more low/mid range torque, the jump is not as violent. Since I was getting a daily driver and liked the little more pull on the lower rpms, I opted for the 04. But, if you push your car hard, there is very little that can compare to the Vtech kicking in on an 00-03.
I just went to an Evolution school to learn to autocross. One instructor said that they much prefer the gearing on the AP2 since it is lower. Also, I am definitely a beginner with autocross, but I did not have a problem invoking oversteer (either power oversteer or lift-off oversteer). I have heard the AP2 is set up for alittle more understeer than the AP1, and I do have to say I did notice some understeer (though half off the time it was driver error). One other handling experience, one instructor did murder a wall of cones when the car did not rotate as much as he expected. I don't remember taking my hands off 9/3 very much, possible one or two turns. The steering ratio has never been a problem (though like I said I just started autocrossing).
One other difference between the years is tire size. Not only did they go to 17", but they also go wider in the front and back.
I just went to an Evolution school to learn to autocross. One instructor said that they much prefer the gearing on the AP2 since it is lower. Also, I am definitely a beginner with autocross, but I did not have a problem invoking oversteer (either power oversteer or lift-off oversteer). I have heard the AP2 is set up for alittle more understeer than the AP1, and I do have to say I did notice some understeer (though half off the time it was driver error). One other handling experience, one instructor did murder a wall of cones when the car did not rotate as much as he expected. I don't remember taking my hands off 9/3 very much, possible one or two turns. The steering ratio has never been a problem (though like I said I just started autocrossing).
One other difference between the years is tire size. Not only did they go to 17", but they also go wider in the front and back.
12-03-2005, 03:53 PM
#5
Never driven an AP2.
However, do note that many AP2 owners are changing the clutch valve problem. It's a DIY and addresses the problem.
As for the Gearing and whatnot, I think the AP2 is a little quicker everywhere. It may have a narrower powerband, but it makes more TQ below 6,000rpm.
On the flipside, I love my AP1 to death. Matched with stiff ass coilovers and wider, lighter wheels... she's a popped cherry after every drive!
However, do note that many AP2 owners are changing the clutch valve problem. It's a DIY and addresses the problem.
As for the Gearing and whatnot, I think the AP2 is a little quicker everywhere. It may have a narrower powerband, but it makes more TQ below 6,000rpm.
On the flipside, I love my AP1 to death. Matched with stiff ass coilovers and wider, lighter wheels... she's a popped cherry after every drive!
12-03-2005, 05:05 PM
#6
Registered User
Originally Posted by WyattH,Dec 3 2005, 05:53 PM
many AP2 owners are changing the clutch valve problem. It's a DIY and addresses the problem.
12-05-2005, 05:58 PM
#7
Registered User
Originally Posted by PedalFaster,Dec 3 2005, 09:05 PM
Illegal in Stock class autocrossing, which was mentioned as a factor by the original poster.
Also note my signature, the new car has no problems rotating.
Trending Topics
12-05-2005, 06:33 PM
#8
Originally Posted by Highrpmek,Dec 5 2005, 06:58 PM
Has anyone ever been busted?
12-07-2005, 08:29 AM
#10
Registered User
Originally Posted by Orthonormal,Dec 5 2005, 11:33 PM
It's not about being busted, it's about competing fairly under the rules. There's all sorts of stuff you could slip past competitors who trust each other not to cheat because it's an amateur sport with nothing on the line but your name on a piece of wood. If you want to run an illegal mod at local events, please ask your competitors up front if it's okay with them.