Moroso weld in baffle with trap door - anyone used it?
01-19-2014, 09:04 PM
#11
Really interesting on the Moroso drop in baffle, huh? There marketing guys are right on it trying to capitalize on a trend. I'd love to follow the thread of who saw the Canton pan, and how they got this put in their catalog again. It's interesting that I found a Google reference to this product as a new product in 2012.
But I know I did not see it when several times during 2013 I looked for any S2000 oil pan stuff it was not listed in their online catalog. It appears to me that they had shelved selling this item (could it be because of the TC Designs experience), but know have decided to sell it (could be because of the talk of the Canton pan). I can't find any reference of it actually being sold or for how much.
Anyway, there would be three issues and questions I'd have to know the answers to and be able to resolve.
The first is the effectiveness of the design. In other words, did they use the trap doors and baffles in the best way.
The second is the quality of construction. We all know that Moroso is a very large company that makes some quality products. We also know that Moroso makes a lot of absolute junk in the kindest sense of the word.
Another, which we've discussed before on the other thread is the welding of Al to Al, or even more sketchy to dissimilar Al alloys. While most of the time it could theoretically be done, it needs to be done by someone very, very proficient (as the item description states) in Al welding. And even then....considering what experienced welders have said about the difficulty, i'd say if there is an alternative to try, I'd go for that.
But I know I did not see it when several times during 2013 I looked for any S2000 oil pan stuff it was not listed in their online catalog. It appears to me that they had shelved selling this item (could it be because of the TC Designs experience), but know have decided to sell it (could be because of the talk of the Canton pan). I can't find any reference of it actually being sold or for how much.
Anyway, there would be three issues and questions I'd have to know the answers to and be able to resolve.
The first is the effectiveness of the design. In other words, did they use the trap doors and baffles in the best way.
The second is the quality of construction. We all know that Moroso is a very large company that makes some quality products. We also know that Moroso makes a lot of absolute junk in the kindest sense of the word.
Another, which we've discussed before on the other thread is the welding of Al to Al, or even more sketchy to dissimilar Al alloys. While most of the time it could theoretically be done, it needs to be done by someone very, very proficient (as the item description states) in Al welding. And even then....considering what experienced welders have said about the difficulty, i'd say if there is an alternative to try, I'd go for that.
01-19-2014, 09:11 PM
#12
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This was interesting, so I took a look at it. I found a decent number of references to leaks in a google search, so I read the first 15-20 or so. What I found is that many of them were the result of improper seating and/or sealing. Some were not actual leaking pans but simply questions. It's interesting the remanning ones mostly just sort of faded out...the thread just stopped without a final determination of the leak or solving it.
Then I took a look at Moroso and Kevco. They also had pages and pages of threads about leaks.
Given this, my conclusion is sh-t happens and it happens to everybody. Also, considering the number of pans probably sold, the number of threads about leaks, and the fact that only people who have problems will post usually, it doesn't look like a big issue for any of the big manufactures.
01-19-2014, 09:16 PM
#13
the moroso weld-in baffle is a great piece. i bought mine back in 2010 i believe. has treated me well. the welding is not an issue and the trap doors are not an issue. the oem pan with this baffle is now on my back up engine beings i had a kevko oil pan made for the car earlier last year. endyn is the shop that actually designed the weld in baffle with the backing of moroso. beings the s2k is a front sump, anything is better than nothing. pm me if youd like some pictures of it installed.
about the aftermarket oil pans leaking, its mainly due to the welding process. i had a moroso aluminum pan on my b-series (which has the same design as this baffle) and never had a problem, although others have had it not seal due to a warped flange. i have a canton steel pan on my ls9 engine and it leaked at first in one corner. i decked it just a tad and have not had one issue with that.
in my opinion, every single aftermarket pan is a hit or miss on whether it will seal or not just because of the thin flange and welding process. and again, welding in this baffle shouldn't be an issue for a welder. every thread states the trap doors fall apart. if anyone has a link, i hope they post it.
about the aftermarket oil pans leaking, its mainly due to the welding process. i had a moroso aluminum pan on my b-series (which has the same design as this baffle) and never had a problem, although others have had it not seal due to a warped flange. i have a canton steel pan on my ls9 engine and it leaked at first in one corner. i decked it just a tad and have not had one issue with that.
in my opinion, every single aftermarket pan is a hit or miss on whether it will seal or not just because of the thin flange and welding process. and again, welding in this baffle shouldn't be an issue for a welder. every thread states the trap doors fall apart. if anyone has a link, i hope they post it.
01-19-2014, 09:22 PM
#14
Registered User
call endyn, he will talk your ear off about the design (in a good way). and as far as i know, its always been marketed and available to buy. earleir last year, i know another member actually bought it from jegs. i bought mine straight from endyn beings it was just released that month.
as for your second comment, that could go both ways for any manufacturer, including canton. things happen, things get by quality control.
as for your second comment, that could go both ways for any manufacturer, including canton. things happen, things get by quality control.
01-19-2014, 09:23 PM
#15
call endyn, he will talk your ear off about the design (in a good way). and as far as i know, its always been marketed and available to buy. earleir last year, i know another member actually bought it from jegs. i bought mine straight from endyn beings it was just released that month.
as for your second comment, that could go both ways for any manufacturer, including canton. things happen, things get by quality control.
as for your second comment, that could go both ways for any manufacturer, including canton. things happen, things get by quality control.
01-20-2014, 08:24 AM
#16
Regarding the pan sealing, that's a good question and something I forgot about. I know many honda pans are steel, but off hand I remember they use rubber gaskets for the oil pan. How will RTV seal with a steel pan and Al block for the s2k? I'd imagine Canton has crossed this bridge before..
01-20-2014, 06:39 PM
#17
Yep, I'm very much liking this solution. Affordable too.
When you researched the leaking Canton pans, did you pay attention to the block material of the engines they were installed on? Leaks have known to develop between engine parts of dissimilar material, especially in a gasketless design (F series engines). I would never install a stainless steel oil pain on an a modern aluminum block, especially the F series. Reasons being, 1) the thermal expansion delta of steel vs. aluminum, and 2) the Canton pan's wall thickness (thin when compared to the oem pan, which is a structural piece).
When you researched the leaking Canton pans, did you pay attention to the block material of the engines they were installed on? Leaks have known to develop between engine parts of dissimilar material, especially in a gasketless design (F series engines). I would never install a stainless steel oil pain on an a modern aluminum block, especially the F series. Reasons being, 1) the thermal expansion delta of steel vs. aluminum, and 2) the Canton pan's wall thickness (thin when compared to the oem pan, which is a structural piece).
I checked around and could only find a few dealers listing prices. The kit was listed for about $150. So if you consider that you have to buy the kit and then pay someone to have it welded in. While there is still a good chance that the welds won't hold because of the impurities in the metal. It doesn't seem like such a good deal.
The problem with welding not only different types of metals but even different purities and thicknesses is that they all need different temps to weld appropriately. From looking at that baffle it seems the welder will need to be fairly skilled to weld that baffle correctly in there. Not to say that it can't be done or done correctly but you can't be some hack welder in a shed doing it without expecting some issues.
As for the thermal expansion of mounting a steel pan to an Al block. I'm not sure about the exact material that the the cast pan is but generally thermal expansion of aluminum is 13 micro inches per degree Fahrenheit. Steel is about 9 or 10. For the sake of arguing lets say 9. 1 micro in is .000001. so that is a difference of say 4 micro inches per degree. If you are running at 300 degrees that constitutes a difference of .0012 inches. While I thought the guy was over thinking it I figured I would do the math and show that he really is over thinking it. We sell a lot of aluminum pans to steel block guys and vice versa so I thought the information would be good for me to know.
Because of all this, we have since started changing everything over to laser cut rails. If you look at our K series pans even they have not had any leaking because of the rigidity of the laser cut rail.
So, considering that several experienced welders in the Canton thread said they wouldn't weld two unknown pieces of Al together for an oil pan, I'd rather spend and extra couple hundred to be safe. Just sayin......
01-20-2014, 09:13 PM
#19
OK, I spent some time looking at this solution too. There really no online dealers listing this part. I have 5 stock oil pans sitting in storage, so for 120 I would be willing to look closer. I own a TC Designs baffled pan. It is from their second design. As far as I can tell there is really no way for it to come apart like the one we all reference (I know of one owner for sure)
Looking at the Moroso design. It is a drop in single part. So even if your welder job failed, it unit will just float in the stock pan. You would surely hear it if your guy's welds failed. Kinda like the Spoon, Mugen and other JDM pans out there with welded baffles installed. There is no way for those JDM pans to block the pickup even if all of the welds failed. So I think the risk is smaller than it was with the TC Design's initial multi part design.
The Moroso design is like the Mugen/Spoon and TC Design's rolled into one.
I personally can not wait to see the Canton pan with it is released. I think that will be great. With the extra's they are offering their customers is outstanding. Too bad I already have a cooler and Accusump installed to take advantage of either.
Looking at the Moroso design. It is a drop in single part. So even if your welder job failed, it unit will just float in the stock pan. You would surely hear it if your guy's welds failed. Kinda like the Spoon, Mugen and other JDM pans out there with welded baffles installed. There is no way for those JDM pans to block the pickup even if all of the welds failed. So I think the risk is smaller than it was with the TC Design's initial multi part design.
The Moroso design is like the Mugen/Spoon and TC Design's rolled into one.
I personally can not wait to see the Canton pan with it is released. I think that will be great. With the extra's they are offering their customers is outstanding. Too bad I already have a cooler and Accusump installed to take advantage of either.
01-20-2014, 09:33 PM
#20
I still wouldn't use a dissimilar material for the oil pan, but that's just me. FYI, I have a few years of experience designing and engineering valves for the nuclear power generation sector.
The thermal expansion of two or more mated parts would be carefully analyzed when determining the flange thickness, bolt diameters, and bolt spacing. Thousands of an inch here and there can add up quick.
Also, have you seen the oem pan? It's a structural piece. Can you prove that your sheet metal canton pan is as strong or stronger?
P.s. Do you work for Canton? Your wording suggests that you do.
The thermal expansion of two or more mated parts would be carefully analyzed when determining the flange thickness, bolt diameters, and bolt spacing. Thousands of an inch here and there can add up quick.
Also, have you seen the oem pan? It's a structural piece. Can you prove that your sheet metal canton pan is as strong or stronger?
P.s. Do you work for Canton? Your wording suggests that you do.