Battle Monkey

Hello everyone,

Since I've begun doing more HPDE/trackday events, I wanted to add some rollover protection. I just received a Hard Dog Double Diagonal rollbar with welded in harness bar, along with the Bulkhead Bar. I am now trying to determine the route that I should go as far as the seat and restraint is concerned.

My S2000 probably sees 2-3,000 street miles per year, along with 4-6 trackdays/HPDEs. So retaining street comfort is important to me, but I also want to be sure that my setup is safe.


Outside of going with a full bucket + 6-point restraint, is the best alternative to just stick with the OEM seat and 3-point?

Or would something like a Bride Euro2/Recaro SR4 + Schroth Profi II ASM (Anti-SubMarine Technology) 4-Point be at least equally as safe as the OEM seat + 3-Point, while providing additional support? The aforementioned seats don't have passthroughs for 6-point belts, which is why I'm looking at the Profi ASM. Or maybe there are other seat/harness options that I'm not considering (I'm 6', 230lbs, 36 waist, so options are more limited). I wouldn't mind a more supportive seat, but I am not going to mix safety systems that don't work with each other.

I know that traditional 4 point belts are a big no-no, but the Schroth ASM technology is intriguing, if it truly can provide at least the same level of safety as the OEM 3-Point, while also providing additional support for driving on track.


Curious to get some thoughts, and what others have come up with for a similar situations.

Thanks in advance.

lookstoomuch

Pretty much exact same track / mileage rate as me and I've concluded there's really no good answer to safety with a dual duty car. I have been running a bucket seat on a PCI mount with the OEM 3 point for a few years and have recently decided I either need to sh*t or get off the pot when it comes to safety and tracking.

As of now I've taken a pause on tracking the car. BTW In the north burbs of Chicago if you're close PM and I can show you the setup I used for a while.

roel03

You could always take the bucket seat out when you're done with the track day. That's what a lot of us would do. It takes 15 minutes to swap seats, and just leave both seat belts in there. When you're dailying the car use the OEM Seat with 3-points, then use the bucket with 6 points for track days. Roll bar should be installed regardless.

ThreeD

I run the a Recaro SPG (I don't think you'd fit in this, try the pole position) w/ PCI mount with OE 3 point and am comfortable with this setup. Porsche runs similar in their GT cars. Ideal, it is not, but you will not get perfection.

Probably the most optimized setup for a dual duty car is to have 6 points mounted up AND keep the OE 3 point. Run the 3 point on the street. 6 point on the track, when not in use, keep the harnesses behind the seat / under / to the side of the seat. This is what I will eventually do.

robrob

"I know that traditional 4 point belts are a big no-no"

Why is that? How would a 4 point be less safe than the stock 3 point?

Battle Monkey

The driver can submarine out of a standard 4pt belt, which would shoot the driver out of the seat and into the floor compartment of the car, in the event of an impact.

That being said, the Schroth Profi II ASM belt builds an extra fold of material into one of the shoulder straps, which extends slightly on an impact and allows the body to twist slightly rather than submarining out of the harness. Mimicking a 3pt.

robrob

"The driver can submarine out of a standard 4pt belt"

Not in an upright seat like the stock s2k seat. 4-point worked pretty good before they invented the crotch strap for more reclined seating positions. If given the choice between stock 3-point and 4-point I'd definitely go with the 4-point. A body really flops around in a rollover with a 3-point.

I ran a 6-point with my stock seat and Hard Dog roll bar for a few months. I ran the right shoulder strap through the headrest hole and ran the left strap to the left of the seat. The driver door keeps you from moving too far left so the floating strap wasn't an issue. I attached the crotch straps to the rear seat bolts and ran the strap between the seat bottom and back. I would sit on the strap then pull it up and buckle it. It's not a good as a proper crotch strap setup but the 6-point was much safer on track than the stock 3-point.

Battle Monkey

Ah Rob, I know who you are now. I actually read a lot of different stuff from your website, and have followed many of your install how-tos. I was planning to actually email you directly to get your thoughts.

thats good to know regarding the 4 points on reclinable seats.

So would you think that something like a Bride Euro2 or Recaro SRD with the Schroth Profi I ASM is a respectable setup without being so hardcore as a 6pt and bucket?

Or do you feel its better to run the sub belts like you explain above?

i appreciate you sharing your thoughts!

robrob

The Profi 4-point is better than the 3-point but I would recommend going with a 6-point as I described above. If you later get a seat with a sub belt slot you can then do a proper 6-point install at no additional harness cost.

DavidNJ

You are both right! A 4-point is better than an OEM 3-point for a lot of reasons: more capacity, better placement, higher capacity, etc. Actual submarining is not a major problem with upright seats. The submarine belts became a think when soon to be 1970 F1 champion Jochen Rindt was killed when he submarined under his incorrectly tightened belts in practice at the Italian Grand Prix. At that point, and harness in a race car was a new thing. However, even in an upright seat, the belts can ride upward as the driver is hurled against the belts in a crash. The submarine belt keeps it in place. That is especially important in a rollover.

Further, 4+-point belts are required for a HANS device, required in many states and by many organizations. And generally, just a good thing to have. Also note belt size is an issue. Some feel a 2" lap belt rides on the pelvis better than a 3", it is common on new harnesses. Shoulder belts can come in 3", 3"/2" hybrids, and 2". The current HANS devices work better with 2". Many of the new FIA 8853/2016 spec belts are all 2". I think a 7pt (2-crotch belts on the side plus a center 'negative-G' belts is safest, but they are virtually non-existent under the new FIA standard (although the standard allows them).

There are also two general ways to connect the crotch belts. One runs through a loop on the lap belt then has the shoulder harness tab connect it. These are often called formula-style belts. The other has a tab which goes into the center camlock or connects to a bar for both crotch belts to the center camlock. The advantage of the formula style is the way the belt wraps the leg. Schoth used to have a hybrid style, which has joined the negative-g belt. Lossing them is 2 steps backwards, IMHO.

Then you need to pick a HANS device, but that is another story.