Stainless Steel Brake Lines Necessary?
04-11-2018, 05:48 AM
#11
There is some very bad and some very good advice here. Don't go out there thinking if you have a line failure you will still have braking and don't think there will be enough runoff. Just play is it safe. Your profile shows you have a 2002. That is a 16 year old car that you've been driving hard (presumably in the canyons). Brake lines are cheap. Just do them and don't think about it.
For the record, I see a few brake failures every year. I do 15-20 days a year at the track. They aren't unheard of.
For the record, I see a few brake failures every year. I do 15-20 days a year at the track. They aren't unheard of.
04-11-2018, 06:43 AM
#12
Registered User
Thread Starter
How old is the car and how many miles? Garaged or kept outside? Driven in salt?
Throughly inspect the condition of the lines. Stainless lines are cheap and easy to install. Cheap insurance IMO.
Read this: https://robrobinette.com/cale_accident_report.htm
Throughly inspect the condition of the lines. Stainless lines are cheap and easy to install. Cheap insurance IMO.
Read this: https://robrobinette.com/cale_accident_report.htm
04-11-2018, 06:58 AM
#13
Registered User
Thread Starter
You've done all of that, but haven't flushed your brakes and haven't changed your brake lines?
You have your priorities all wrong.
If there is anything your car needs to do when you want it to be done 100% of the time without fail, it's STOP. Period.
Do you know what happens when your car doesn't stop when you want it to or are expecting it to but it doesn't? What's your plan B if as you barrel down the front straight at 100+ mph your brake pedal goes to the floor and nothing?
Just think for a little bit. A set of SS lines from StopTech front and rear will run you $130 + $20 for a can of Type-200 brake fluid. $150 total.
It will take about 3-4 hours to install and bleed the lines if you have absolutely no clue what you're doing.
Drive shaft spacers are about $100 and a diffuser (that pretty much does nothing for lap times) is at least $500. But you haven't done anything with your brakes???
Your brand new grippy tires also aren't going to be doing your brakes any favors...
Please spend the time and money to work on your brakes.
At best, your brake lines are 10 years old if you have an '09 (built in '08). At worst, you have 20 year old lines if you have a '00...
What other tweaks are you doing that's more important than your car stopping? I'm quite curious to understand what could possibly take precedence over that.
I'm curious what other "go fast parts" you've spent money on an lieu of general brake maintenance.
You have your priorities all wrong.
If there is anything your car needs to do when you want it to be done 100% of the time without fail, it's STOP. Period.
Do you know what happens when your car doesn't stop when you want it to or are expecting it to but it doesn't? What's your plan B if as you barrel down the front straight at 100+ mph your brake pedal goes to the floor and nothing?
Just think for a little bit. A set of SS lines from StopTech front and rear will run you $130 + $20 for a can of Type-200 brake fluid. $150 total.
It will take about 3-4 hours to install and bleed the lines if you have absolutely no clue what you're doing.
Drive shaft spacers are about $100 and a diffuser (that pretty much does nothing for lap times) is at least $500. But you haven't done anything with your brakes???
Your brand new grippy tires also aren't going to be doing your brakes any favors...
Please spend the time and money to work on your brakes.
At best, your brake lines are 10 years old if you have an '09 (built in '08). At worst, you have 20 year old lines if you have a '00...
What other tweaks are you doing that's more important than your car stopping? I'm quite curious to understand what could possibly take precedence over that.
I'm curious what other "go fast parts" you've spent money on an lieu of general brake maintenance.
Hey it's his first track day, and he's here asking for advice; I consider that a great start.
I had a ton of brake fade my first time. I didn't even think I would get close to boiling the fluid on stock brakes/tires. I think it did me a little good to go through that experience and know I never want to see it again.
If you do have time, do a brake flush to ATE 200 and you'll be fine. Whenever you do pads/rotors next go ahead and swap your lines.
I had a ton of brake fade my first time. I didn't even think I would get close to boiling the fluid on stock brakes/tires. I think it did me a little good to go through that experience and know I never want to see it again.
If you do have time, do a brake flush to ATE 200 and you'll be fine. Whenever you do pads/rotors next go ahead and swap your lines.
There is some very bad and some very good advice here. Don't go out there thinking if you have a line failure you will still have braking and don't think there will be enough runoff. Just play is it safe. Your profile shows you have a 2002. That is a 16 year old car that you've been driving hard (presumably in the canyons). Brake lines are cheap. Just do them and don't think about it.
For the record, I see a few brake failures every year. I do 15-20 days a year at the track. They aren't unheard of.
For the record, I see a few brake failures every year. I do 15-20 days a year at the track. They aren't unheard of.
But Roel has a point, it is my first track day, but I'm not using it as an excuse. I have been doing as much research to maintenance and upgrade what I can with my budget. Tracking, as I've come to find out, isn't cheap by any means. The brake lines, among other things, are pushing me past my budget. Will it be worth it? Yes. Will I live on ramen for the next 2 weeks? Yes.
One more question; is the gravity bleed better than the doing the one-person pedal pump method. ChrisFix on the youtubes bleeds the system by attaching a hose to the bleeder and going into a bottle of oldish fluid to create a vacuum seal and pumps the brakes.
04-11-2018, 07:14 AM
#14
Bullwing; I completely understand your point. It's not that I had my priorities all wrong, but time was short for me since I only signed up for the track day 2 weeks ago and the S is my daily as of now. I am going to evasive today to pick up a set of lines and install them as soon as I get home. Other "tweaks" I had to do were adjust my ride height to prevent rubbing on the track at high speed corners, change the coilpacks for peace of mind (misfired last week), and install those spacers because vibrations were terrible.
But Roel has a point, it is my first track day, but I'm not using it as an excuse. I have been doing as much research to maintenance and upgrade what I can with my budget. Tracking, as I've come to find out, isn't cheap by any means. The brake lines, among other things, are pushing me past my budget. Will it be worth it? Yes. Will I live on ramen for the next 2 weeks? Yes.
One more question; is the gravity bleed better than the doing the one-person pedal pump method. ChrisFix on the youtubes bleeds the system by attaching a hose to the bleeder and going into a bottle of oldish fluid to create a vacuum seal and pumps the brakes.
But Roel has a point, it is my first track day, but I'm not using it as an excuse. I have been doing as much research to maintenance and upgrade what I can with my budget. Tracking, as I've come to find out, isn't cheap by any means. The brake lines, among other things, are pushing me past my budget. Will it be worth it? Yes. Will I live on ramen for the next 2 weeks? Yes.
One more question; is the gravity bleed better than the doing the one-person pedal pump method. ChrisFix on the youtubes bleeds the system by attaching a hose to the bleeder and going into a bottle of oldish fluid to create a vacuum seal and pumps the brakes.
I may be the minority but I'm not a fan with swapping the lines a couple days before a track day, especially as you're a beginner with doing the work. I think the probability of you doing it wrong or having a leak is greater than you busting the OEM lines. If you haven't bled brakes before I doubt you'll get all the air out either.
If you do swap lines, make sure to drive around before hand, then take the wheels off and thoroughly check for leaks.
If you do get fade on the track, do a cool down lap and then return to the pits to let them cool off.
04-11-2018, 07:50 AM
#15
Registered User
Thread Starter
Yes, the gravity bleed method is the best method.
I may be the minority but I'm not a fan with swapping the lines a couple days before a track day, especially as you're a beginner with doing the work. I think the probability of you doing it wrong or having a leak is greater than you busting the OEM lines. If you haven't bled brakes before I doubt you'll get all the air out either.
If you do swap lines, make sure to drive around before hand, then take the wheels off and thoroughly check for leaks.
If you do get fade on the track, do a cool down lap and then return to the pits to let them cool off.
I may be the minority but I'm not a fan with swapping the lines a couple days before a track day, especially as you're a beginner with doing the work. I think the probability of you doing it wrong or having a leak is greater than you busting the OEM lines. If you haven't bled brakes before I doubt you'll get all the air out either.
If you do swap lines, make sure to drive around before hand, then take the wheels off and thoroughly check for leaks.
If you do get fade on the track, do a cool down lap and then return to the pits to let them cool off.
I'll definitely make sure to continually check for leaks and pedal pressure feel all tonight and tomorrow before the track day.
04-11-2018, 10:00 AM
#16
Community Organizer
Have fun, stay safe.
04-11-2018, 10:22 AM
#17
Just did the swap to stainless lines on my 2nd s2k, more for piece of mind rather then any failure. If you do the swap make sure you by the 10 mm flare nut wrench! Its line like 5 buxs at autozone and worth it for getting the lines off. But i live in MO so i had to deal with rusty crap.
04-11-2018, 09:36 PM
#18
Welcome to the sport. I used OEM brake pads and lines for my first few events. My advice is to get good DOT 4 fluid, flush/bleed the system, and go have fun.
I just want to clarify the purpose of stainless brake lines, and tell you what to look for.
There is a lot of talk about OEM brake lines failing, but the primary purpose of stainless lines is to reduce brake line expansion. As hot brake fluid pumps through the OEM brake lines, the material gets softer and expands more under pressure. If the lines expand, that means less fluid is making it to the pistons and you have less stopping power. Stainless lines are designed not to expand as much when they get hot, so more fluid gets to the pistons giving a firmer peddle feel and more consistent stopping power.
Depending on how hard you push your car, you might not experience any of these symptoms your first event(s). Moreover, your head will so full of corner entry stuff, you might not notice even if you do experience it. That being said, here is what to look for.
If your peddle is firm and it is not pushing deeper, but you are not slowing as much, it could be brake fade (the pads/rotors have accumulated too much heat and exceeded the optimal temp). Slow down for a few corners to let them dissipate some heat and get better pads for your next event.
If the peddle is softer or traveling deeper it could be the lines are expanding, a trapped air bubble is compressing (not properly bleed), or dissolved water is vaporizing then compressing (old fluid). Assuming you have new fluid properly bleed, it could be the lines expanding. Brake lines are not force-cooled like the pads/rotors, so slowing for a few corners might not be sufficient to cool the lines. You might need to drop your speed for several laps or remaining session. Get stainless lines for your next event.
As a novice student, the MOST likely cause has less to do with heat too much accumulated over the session and more to do with the previous corner. You probably exited the previous corner faster and are carrying more speed into the next corner, but you did not increase your stopping distance. Congrats on the previous corner - now increase your stopping distances next lap.
Listen to your instructor and have fun.
I just want to clarify the purpose of stainless brake lines, and tell you what to look for.
There is a lot of talk about OEM brake lines failing, but the primary purpose of stainless lines is to reduce brake line expansion. As hot brake fluid pumps through the OEM brake lines, the material gets softer and expands more under pressure. If the lines expand, that means less fluid is making it to the pistons and you have less stopping power. Stainless lines are designed not to expand as much when they get hot, so more fluid gets to the pistons giving a firmer peddle feel and more consistent stopping power.
Depending on how hard you push your car, you might not experience any of these symptoms your first event(s). Moreover, your head will so full of corner entry stuff, you might not notice even if you do experience it. That being said, here is what to look for.
If your peddle is firm and it is not pushing deeper, but you are not slowing as much, it could be brake fade (the pads/rotors have accumulated too much heat and exceeded the optimal temp). Slow down for a few corners to let them dissipate some heat and get better pads for your next event.
If the peddle is softer or traveling deeper it could be the lines are expanding, a trapped air bubble is compressing (not properly bleed), or dissolved water is vaporizing then compressing (old fluid). Assuming you have new fluid properly bleed, it could be the lines expanding. Brake lines are not force-cooled like the pads/rotors, so slowing for a few corners might not be sufficient to cool the lines. You might need to drop your speed for several laps or remaining session. Get stainless lines for your next event.
As a novice student, the MOST likely cause has less to do with heat too much accumulated over the session and more to do with the previous corner. You probably exited the previous corner faster and are carrying more speed into the next corner, but you did not increase your stopping distance. Congrats on the previous corner - now increase your stopping distances next lap.
Listen to your instructor and have fun.
04-12-2018, 06:50 AM
#19
Former Moderator
"The thing is, even if you blow a line, you don't lose all brakes like many people think. . ."
Wrong. Open one brake line bleed nipple and drive around the block. No, don't do that because you'll hit something. I don't really understand why we lose all braking with one bleeder open but we do and having one brake line pop off is worse than an open bleeder. Before Cale's accident I thought our dual semi-independent brake system would allow for strong braking on the other, good diagonal brakes but they don't operate that way after all.
Wrong. Open one brake line bleed nipple and drive around the block. No, don't do that because you'll hit something. I don't really understand why we lose all braking with one bleeder open but we do and having one brake line pop off is worse than an open bleeder. Before Cale's accident I thought our dual semi-independent brake system would allow for strong braking on the other, good diagonal brakes but they don't operate that way after all.
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TrumpetTitan (07-18-2018)
04-12-2018, 09:40 AM
#20
Listen to everybody here except for the tool that said blowing a line isn't bad. Get your stainless brake lines. You only need to experience brake fade once and then you feel like an idiot, it seriously SUCKS.