CoolGuy094

2000 AP1 running in STR

Currently on car:
Buddy Club N+
Saner bar, 3rd hole (going to 2nd soon)
AP2V1 rear sway bar
AP1's with Hankook V12's (meant as DD's)

Currently own, going on car during Txgiving:
AP2V1's non-staggered w/ 255 RS-3's (autox days only)
Invidia Q300 dual
Invidia 70mm test pipe (I know, illegal in STR, will rectify for next season)
Comptech intake
Dropping Saner bar to 2nd hole

Here is my deal... I can't personally justify spending 1000+ on a awesome header, or even 700 on a used awesome header, yet. I could stand 400 for a "copycat" like PLM or Ricks, but worry about how much it would actually help.

I think it would be better to spend 200-300 on a used VAFC or E-Manage and the extra 100-200 on a proper tune after getting the intake, tp, and exhaust on. I would have to retune after adding the header at a later date, but this would get me set up properly with lower vtec and good a/f for the early events next year.

Agree/disagree? Comments? I feel like I'm just trying to talk myself through to the answer I want; it does make sense right?

josh7owens

I got very small gains from adding a header to my car without tuning. I actually lost 2hp on the top end without tuning. With that said if your on a budget your going to get better gains from tuning then anymore engine mods. I have a Apexi Neo and boomslang harness I'll sell you for $300 plus shipping. It allows you to lower the vtec and smooth out the crossover (helps alot with not upsetting the rear tires) and also allows you to lean out the upper rpm range for some power gains. Let me know if your interested.

marks_lude

Suppose both net you a few hp. the header will give you the power, but the tune will give power and make the car easier to drive by smoothing out the switch to vtec. You may also gain more than just a few hp around that transition spot also. Go for the tune.

That said, I mentally budgeted more the 400 for a tuning system and a tune. Maybe it is that cheap. (I hope!) I'm no expert.

nlink720

I gained a little from the header, and a LOT from tuning. The biggest gains for me were the Berk HFC and exhaust + tuning via FlashPro. The header was a weight reduction, but so too were the HFC and exhaust. Definitely go with tune over header if you have to choose one or the other. Make sure you have the HFC or test pipe though -- that was huge.

sirbunz

This all depends on your goal. If this is all you plan to do with the car, I would go with a proper tune. Going deeper into your situation, for STR, the AP1 is currently limited on legal options. The electronics + tune will be more than $400. That said, I would go with a header and high flow cat. I'm sure more tuning options for the AP1 will be available in the near future. I would hate to spend that money now and something better become available next Spring. I went with a Berk Header and 70mm HFC on my AP1. There is noticeable gains even without a tune. I too couldn't justify spending so much on the Toda when other mods will gain you much more time. When a proper tuning device that is "proven" becomes available for my AP1, I will buy it. Until then, I will focus on the other mods.

-Marc

nlink720

I agree with Marc above, but for me when VTEC was lowered it nicely complemented the gains from the HFC and exhaust. There is another thread going on right now with a yellow AP1 showing major (more than 20 ft-lbs) midrange torque gains. Perhaps inquire there, but the torque is very noticeable and I did the header last, which seemed to add throttle response, but not add to the pull nearly as much as the 70mm HFC added to exhaust. When VTEC was lowered - something that didn't benefit prior to the HFC - the power contined to increase.

For those reasons I reasoned HFC, exhaust and tune, but I agree that there are definitely gains even without the tune after you get the cat and exhaust. I feel for those in pre'06. Such a hassle to tune like later cars. Good luck whatever you do. I BTW, I went PLM header cheap, no issues and dropped 11 lbs. HFC was 8 lbs and exhaust 32 lb loss.

daverx7

I agree with Marc on this.

As long as the engine is safe without the tuning, I would go with the parts and when you get to your end state, do the tune. Otherwise you are paying for the tune now and again when you get your car more fully STR prepared. It also allows for some time to pass for things to shake out for the best AP1 tune.

Good luck!!

-Dave

Forcednduckshn

I echo what everyone is saying (which is two different things). Let's distill it. There are two answers, really. Short term: a tune is absolutely the way to go. Bringing down the vtec engagement point is an absolute game changer for the F20, especially with the taller 2nd gear, which kills the midrange acceleration of the AP1 in autocross (a huge deal.) You will gain way more power and tq from a tune, in all of the right places, in your situation, then just bolting on a header.

If you plan on doing the tune anyway, shortly afterward, then definitely do the header first. The tune will change significantly (as much as NA cars can go anyway) when you change from the stock unit to breathed on header.

Cheers,

markhs2

If you want the true story on the header talk to the dyno tuners. I spoke to about 4 different top shops and they all said for the NA car all the headers except the hytech an the toda either make the same power as OEM or less. They said that most make less. They also said the toda and hytech make a small amount more, about the same as a test pipe.

josh7owens

and I have a dyno of my $1400 toda header showing this. The header just leaned everything out but didn't show much of a gain without tuning.

My NEO is still for sale