constructive talk on Laguna Seca driving line
01-18-2002, 01:39 PM
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Many thanks to Jason for this hot lap description! I consider this FAQ quality writing. A description of relative rev position for the turns is the only thing i can possibly think of that would make this better, but that's nit picking. 
Since the previous thread was locked, I wanted to open a new one for questions and comments about driving the line.
T1 - Coming up the straightaway and running up throught the gears, you set up a little to the right of the track for 1. Then, before the bend in the road even becomes visible, you turn is a bit across the track. As you crest the hill and see the turn, you want to be pointed at the painted white line that seperates pit-out. Your inside tires should almost touch that painted line as you begin to unwind and track-out. I saw allot of novices trying to stay to the right of the track all the way through 1 to stay set up for T2. There's plenty of time to get back over to the left after apexing 1, and the very motion of tracking out from the white line will put you in the right place for braking for T2. There is no lift for 1, even in a stock S2K.
T2 - Powering down the hill, you set the car up to the right of the track taking care not to get out over the painted white line. I was braking at the 2.5 marker, but a good conservative point for students is the 3 or 3.5 marker. You do as much braking in a straight line as you can, then at the 1 marker you turn in and basically point your car at the first apex. It's a very early turn-in to be on the proper line for a double-apex. There was allot of debate as to what's faster, but I can assure you that the double-apex line allows you to carry more speed. The late-single-apex line that many instructors were teaching pinches off the second turn and while it gives you more exit room it also lowers your cornering speed. Combining lower cornering speed with a wider line (missing the first apex) means slower times. Driving more distance can take time away even if you are going faster. In this case, taking the wider line means you can carry a little more speed in, but then give it all up in the second apex. By driving all that extra distance and parking it for the second apex, you loose allot of time. Back to my approach... I would turn-in and point to the first apex, then let the car track-out or 'breathe' slightly by unwinding a little between the two apexes. Then I would turn-in for the second apex and use every inch of the track on exit. This was a third-gear corner for us, and it was probably a second gear for street tires. Although I was able to turn low 1:50s' in student's cars on street tires using third in T2. I'd rather be under control and powering out in 3rd than sliding the back end and fighting the car in 2nd, then having to make an upshift before T3. Personal preference on street tires, but I like 3rd better - and definitely 3rd is a must for race rubber. You never really fully unwind the wheel at exit of T2, because you have to immediately bring the car over to the edge of the track for T3.
T3 - Set up on the left of the track. Brake at the 2 marker, good solid braking. Make sure you turn-in at or just as you pass the 1 marker. This will put you on a slightly early apex line, and allow you to use all the track-out space. Many people turn-in too late here, making for an easy exit, but they have to overslow to get the car turned-in. Almost every corner at Laguna works the best if you turn-in at the 1 marker. Not many tracks are like this. I think they designed Laguna's brake markers this way. T3 is 3rd gear.
T4 - Very fast corner, line up to the left, just squeeze the brakes for a second at the 1.5 marker, turn in just as you cross the 1 marker. I was only scrubbing like 5-7 mph there under braking. Feed in a full throttle almost immediately and track-out to the edge. Almost no-one was taking this fast enough... It's a corner with a high pucker factor. In the end, a very straightforward 3rd gear sweeper. I was snicking 4th about 10 feet after passing the exit curbing of T4, and then carrying 4th into the braking for T5.
T5 - This corner is decieving... because it's uphill, you can carry allot of speed through there. I almost never felt like I was at the limit through there. I just kept braking less and less there. Basically I was braking at the 2.5 marker and turning in at the 1 marker. Again, a way earlier turn-in than I saw most people doing. I tucked in and did a slightly early apex and then powered out while unwinding the wheel. A couple times I got squirrely in steady-state, telling me I was close to the limit - but generally this is a tricky turn because you don't get the same feedback in the uphill exit. Basically you power out while trying to keep the revs up... this corner becomes really important as it sets up your run up the hill... I really tried to keep improving my exit RPM from T5, knowing it would help my run up the hill.
T6 - Is one of the most fun, but most intimidating corners on the track. Most people did their braking way too late, almost carrying that braking into the turn. Basically, what I was doing was braking hard in a straight line and shifting back to 3rd after carry 4th for a short time under the bridge. I would then turn-in at the 1 marker and try to get the car mostly turned before the rise in the pavement. The car tends to get light over the rise, so you want start it pointing in the right direction before cresting the rise. Then, as you fall into the 'dip' your car is already pointed the right way and you are already on the throttle. I was back to the floor pretty much as the car finished settling into the dip. Very fast at the tippy-top of third gear, and definitely not for the weak of heart at speed. This carrys you up the hill toward the corkscrew.
T7/8 - The corkscrew is very impressive, but when done right the most exciting part is the braking. By the end of the day I was on the floor in 4th gear until after the rise. This was pretty hairy stuff. But, FWIW at the time trial a couple weeks ago, I was turning the same times and braking before the rise. The safest way to do it is to hit the brakes at what is effectively the 3.5 marker... just before the crest. Then you release the brakes slightly and depress them again just after you crest the rise. For 7, you really have to late apex. The turn-in point for 8 is blind, so you have to know to get the car into the right position. You are basically turning in for 8 before you ever see it. It's one of those things that practice can only fix... learning the right spot to start turning right for 8 is very tricky. I saw allot of students letting the car get too wide in 7, only to be too wide to enter 8. You have to hold your line far through 7 to set up to the left for 8. Then, you want to let the car track-out to the left as you power down the hill. Too many people were already anticipating 9, and keeping the car along the right side of the track while not powering down the hill. (I saw one student hang the right wheels in the dirt setting up for 9!) The best thing to do is power down the hill and let the car go to about the middle of the track. Then, you only need to bring it back about 3/4 of the way across the track to the right to set up for 9. I was taking 7/8 in 3rd gear, as it's very hard to make the upshift to 3rd going down the hill. Plus, it allowed me to get back to the floor after 7, and keep it there until 9.
T9 - Entering this is tricky, as there are no markers or a well defined line. You have to ignore the right 1/4 of the track on entry, as it's dusty and off-camber. Basically, you enter the corner from about 3/4 of the way over. I was hitting the brakes for a quick second before turning-in, just because I had such a head of steam coming down the hill. For turn in, you have to wait until the turn begins. I saw too many people getting over to the left too early. You have to wait until you see the whites of their eyes. Follow the gray line on the ground where the majority of rubber is down. It will show you the way. You apex slightly early, and by the apex you are already squeezing down to full throttle. Always, squeeze the gas, never stomp on it. Track-out all the way to the curbing... again, some people were already anticipating 10... there's plently of time to get back over to the left, so track-out all the way in 9, then make your way over the left for 10.
T10 - One of the more fun corners, it's banked in our favor. I was touching the limiter a couple times entering it, and often would go to 4th between 9 and 10 just to keep off the limiter. Most people would just keep the car in third there. I would brake at about the 2 marker, and it's not that heavy of a braking zone... a very fast corner if taken right. Again, track all the way out on exit, there's plenty of room to cross the track and get set up for 11.
T11 - I was also hitting the limiter from time to time coming into 11, but most would stay in 3rd. You want to brake just as you pass the 3 marker. Most people were braking way too late for 11, then having to park it to actually make the corner. If you brake at the 3 marker, you're under control and can enter the turn properly by turning at the 1 marker. This was one of the few corners where you want to slightly pop the curb at apex.. just to widen the turn a little more. This is one of the two keys to a good lap, as it leads onto the biggest straight. Getting more exit speed helps lap times. Definitely a place for SLOW IN, fast out. Most of my students took the biggest lessons in both T11 and T2, as these are the most important. You want to sqeeze the throttle gently in 11, and track-out all the way to the dirt. You use every inch of space, including the painted gator teeth! It's a fun corner, and definitely rewards braking early.
I hope this helps... keep in mind, this was only my third day at Laguna, but I'm a quick study on lines thanks to autocross. Anyone who tells you that autocross experience doesn't apply at the track, remind them about PD Cunningham, Randy Pobst, Neal Sapp, etc... All autocrossers that have successfully made the transition to road racing. But since I was fairly new, I might be off in a few corners... feel free to discuss openly if you have any other ideas about certain corners... I'm always interested in discussing/learning new lines and ideas.
Since the previous thread was locked, I wanted to open a new one for questions and comments about driving the line.
T1 - Coming up the straightaway and running up throught the gears, you set up a little to the right of the track for 1. Then, before the bend in the road even becomes visible, you turn is a bit across the track. As you crest the hill and see the turn, you want to be pointed at the painted white line that seperates pit-out. Your inside tires should almost touch that painted line as you begin to unwind and track-out. I saw allot of novices trying to stay to the right of the track all the way through 1 to stay set up for T2. There's plenty of time to get back over to the left after apexing 1, and the very motion of tracking out from the white line will put you in the right place for braking for T2. There is no lift for 1, even in a stock S2K.
T2 - Powering down the hill, you set the car up to the right of the track taking care not to get out over the painted white line. I was braking at the 2.5 marker, but a good conservative point for students is the 3 or 3.5 marker. You do as much braking in a straight line as you can, then at the 1 marker you turn in and basically point your car at the first apex. It's a very early turn-in to be on the proper line for a double-apex. There was allot of debate as to what's faster, but I can assure you that the double-apex line allows you to carry more speed. The late-single-apex line that many instructors were teaching pinches off the second turn and while it gives you more exit room it also lowers your cornering speed. Combining lower cornering speed with a wider line (missing the first apex) means slower times. Driving more distance can take time away even if you are going faster. In this case, taking the wider line means you can carry a little more speed in, but then give it all up in the second apex. By driving all that extra distance and parking it for the second apex, you loose allot of time. Back to my approach... I would turn-in and point to the first apex, then let the car track-out or 'breathe' slightly by unwinding a little between the two apexes. Then I would turn-in for the second apex and use every inch of the track on exit. This was a third-gear corner for us, and it was probably a second gear for street tires. Although I was able to turn low 1:50s' in student's cars on street tires using third in T2. I'd rather be under control and powering out in 3rd than sliding the back end and fighting the car in 2nd, then having to make an upshift before T3. Personal preference on street tires, but I like 3rd better - and definitely 3rd is a must for race rubber. You never really fully unwind the wheel at exit of T2, because you have to immediately bring the car over to the edge of the track for T3.
T3 - Set up on the left of the track. Brake at the 2 marker, good solid braking. Make sure you turn-in at or just as you pass the 1 marker. This will put you on a slightly early apex line, and allow you to use all the track-out space. Many people turn-in too late here, making for an easy exit, but they have to overslow to get the car turned-in. Almost every corner at Laguna works the best if you turn-in at the 1 marker. Not many tracks are like this. I think they designed Laguna's brake markers this way. T3 is 3rd gear.
T4 - Very fast corner, line up to the left, just squeeze the brakes for a second at the 1.5 marker, turn in just as you cross the 1 marker. I was only scrubbing like 5-7 mph there under braking. Feed in a full throttle almost immediately and track-out to the edge. Almost no-one was taking this fast enough... It's a corner with a high pucker factor. In the end, a very straightforward 3rd gear sweeper. I was snicking 4th about 10 feet after passing the exit curbing of T4, and then carrying 4th into the braking for T5.
T5 - This corner is decieving... because it's uphill, you can carry allot of speed through there. I almost never felt like I was at the limit through there. I just kept braking less and less there. Basically I was braking at the 2.5 marker and turning in at the 1 marker. Again, a way earlier turn-in than I saw most people doing. I tucked in and did a slightly early apex and then powered out while unwinding the wheel. A couple times I got squirrely in steady-state, telling me I was close to the limit - but generally this is a tricky turn because you don't get the same feedback in the uphill exit. Basically you power out while trying to keep the revs up... this corner becomes really important as it sets up your run up the hill... I really tried to keep improving my exit RPM from T5, knowing it would help my run up the hill.
T6 - Is one of the most fun, but most intimidating corners on the track. Most people did their braking way too late, almost carrying that braking into the turn. Basically, what I was doing was braking hard in a straight line and shifting back to 3rd after carry 4th for a short time under the bridge. I would then turn-in at the 1 marker and try to get the car mostly turned before the rise in the pavement. The car tends to get light over the rise, so you want start it pointing in the right direction before cresting the rise. Then, as you fall into the 'dip' your car is already pointed the right way and you are already on the throttle. I was back to the floor pretty much as the car finished settling into the dip. Very fast at the tippy-top of third gear, and definitely not for the weak of heart at speed. This carrys you up the hill toward the corkscrew.
T7/8 - The corkscrew is very impressive, but when done right the most exciting part is the braking. By the end of the day I was on the floor in 4th gear until after the rise. This was pretty hairy stuff. But, FWIW at the time trial a couple weeks ago, I was turning the same times and braking before the rise. The safest way to do it is to hit the brakes at what is effectively the 3.5 marker... just before the crest. Then you release the brakes slightly and depress them again just after you crest the rise. For 7, you really have to late apex. The turn-in point for 8 is blind, so you have to know to get the car into the right position. You are basically turning in for 8 before you ever see it. It's one of those things that practice can only fix... learning the right spot to start turning right for 8 is very tricky. I saw allot of students letting the car get too wide in 7, only to be too wide to enter 8. You have to hold your line far through 7 to set up to the left for 8. Then, you want to let the car track-out to the left as you power down the hill. Too many people were already anticipating 9, and keeping the car along the right side of the track while not powering down the hill. (I saw one student hang the right wheels in the dirt setting up for 9!) The best thing to do is power down the hill and let the car go to about the middle of the track. Then, you only need to bring it back about 3/4 of the way across the track to the right to set up for 9. I was taking 7/8 in 3rd gear, as it's very hard to make the upshift to 3rd going down the hill. Plus, it allowed me to get back to the floor after 7, and keep it there until 9.
T9 - Entering this is tricky, as there are no markers or a well defined line. You have to ignore the right 1/4 of the track on entry, as it's dusty and off-camber. Basically, you enter the corner from about 3/4 of the way over. I was hitting the brakes for a quick second before turning-in, just because I had such a head of steam coming down the hill. For turn in, you have to wait until the turn begins. I saw too many people getting over to the left too early. You have to wait until you see the whites of their eyes. Follow the gray line on the ground where the majority of rubber is down. It will show you the way. You apex slightly early, and by the apex you are already squeezing down to full throttle. Always, squeeze the gas, never stomp on it. Track-out all the way to the curbing... again, some people were already anticipating 10... there's plently of time to get back over to the left, so track-out all the way in 9, then make your way over the left for 10.
T10 - One of the more fun corners, it's banked in our favor. I was touching the limiter a couple times entering it, and often would go to 4th between 9 and 10 just to keep off the limiter. Most people would just keep the car in third there. I would brake at about the 2 marker, and it's not that heavy of a braking zone... a very fast corner if taken right. Again, track all the way out on exit, there's plenty of room to cross the track and get set up for 11.
T11 - I was also hitting the limiter from time to time coming into 11, but most would stay in 3rd. You want to brake just as you pass the 3 marker. Most people were braking way too late for 11, then having to park it to actually make the corner. If you brake at the 3 marker, you're under control and can enter the turn properly by turning at the 1 marker. This was one of the few corners where you want to slightly pop the curb at apex.. just to widen the turn a little more. This is one of the two keys to a good lap, as it leads onto the biggest straight. Getting more exit speed helps lap times. Definitely a place for SLOW IN, fast out. Most of my students took the biggest lessons in both T11 and T2, as these are the most important. You want to sqeeze the throttle gently in 11, and track-out all the way to the dirt. You use every inch of space, including the painted gator teeth! It's a fun corner, and definitely rewards braking early.
I hope this helps... keep in mind, this was only my third day at Laguna, but I'm a quick study on lines thanks to autocross. Anyone who tells you that autocross experience doesn't apply at the track, remind them about PD Cunningham, Randy Pobst, Neal Sapp, etc... All autocrossers that have successfully made the transition to road racing. But since I was fairly new, I might be off in a few corners... feel free to discuss openly if you have any other ideas about certain corners... I'm always interested in discussing/learning new lines and ideas.
01-18-2002, 01:48 PM
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for T1, there was a small patch in the pavement that I was putting my left wheels over. That lined me up pretty well for braking into T2.
I was almost always braking too hard for 5. It actually seems to be one of the safer corners out there, no walls to hit if you go in too hot. Usually I would drop below vtec then kick myself for doing it!!!
T6, i think the dip takes some getting used to. Like you said, it's a fast corner, and I kept hitting myself for braking too much. On saturday I saw almost every car get squirrely there at one time or another, most noticeably a carerra 4.
T9 is really cool. Level camber on a downhill makes it feel even faster.
T10, well, you saw me when you were behind me, I brake too much probably cuz I always run out into the dirt in GT3 
Something about T10...I brake too hard at thunderhill's T10 also.
I was almost always braking too hard for 5. It actually seems to be one of the safer corners out there, no walls to hit if you go in too hot. Usually I would drop below vtec then kick myself for doing it!!!
T6, i think the dip takes some getting used to. Like you said, it's a fast corner, and I kept hitting myself for braking too much. On saturday I saw almost every car get squirrely there at one time or another, most noticeably a carerra 4.
T9 is really cool. Level camber on a downhill makes it feel even faster.
T10, well, you saw me when you were behind me, I brake too much
probably cuz I always run out into the dirt in GT3 Something about T10...I brake too hard at thunderhill's T10 also.
01-18-2002, 01:54 PM
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Good post jason, one question in your turn 1 description: you state "I saw allot of novices trying to stay to the left of the track all the way through 1 to stay set up for T2. There's plenty of time to get back over to the left after apexing 1, and the very motion of tracking out from the white line will put you in the right place for braking for T2" Did you mean right instead of left?
01-18-2002, 02:05 PM
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Jeez, I stepped away from the Laguna Photo thread for 2 hours and it just exploded! In any case, thanks a lot to Jason for his very detailed description of the proper way to drive Laguna. Obviously, you have to make adjustments for your own ability levels, but its great having such an excellent driver spilling the beans on his driving technique.
I tired it a couple of times and my M Coupe just feels like it hates that line! Maybe my pressures are screwed up or something, but with the stock tires and suspension, no matter how much slower I go into two, the car understeers like a b!tch. With R tires, I would surely have enough grip to take the double apex. On the stock setup, however, that line felt much slower. I would get at ~5mph slower on exit speed too. For what its worth, I don't swing completely wide on two, I just enter it at half track and try to come in for apex #2 as quickly as possible. Taking that line, I'm still forced to track out all the way to the right, so its not like I'm pinching the exit. Maybe I just need to practice the double apex line a bit more to get the most out of it. What's your take?
Damn dude! You should have just told me to move!!! I would have had no problem with that. You seem to be a really great group of guys and the last thing that I'd want to do is hamper your ability to take publicity photos.
I look forward to seeing all of you next time and hopefully I'll get the rest of my in-car vids online shortly. Then y'all can REALLY school me on my technique!
Cheers,
Kevin
'00 M coupe
Originally posted by Jason Saini
It was great meeting you, too... did you start doing the double-apex line through 2? I didn't check your video out yet. And don't worry about the oil - you needed it and we didn't!
It was great meeting you, too... did you start doing the double-apex line through 2? I didn't check your video out yet. And don't worry about the oil - you needed it and we didn't!
Originally posted by GTRPower
Kevin_B- It was nice to meet you. I'm sure we'll meet up some day in the future! Next time, park on the other side of the Over6 cars- we wanted a picture for our sponsors and couldn't get it, so we resorted to parking the cars in front of the rigs! Good fun- love your coupe! Thanks for all the links too!
Kevin_B- It was nice to meet you. I'm sure we'll meet up some day in the future! Next time, park on the other side of the Over6 cars- we wanted a picture for our sponsors and couldn't get it, so we resorted to parking the cars in front of the rigs! Good fun- love your coupe! Thanks for all the links too!
I look forward to seeing all of you next time and hopefully I'll get the rest of my in-car vids online shortly. Then y'all can REALLY school me on my technique!
Cheers,
Kevin
'00 M coupe
01-18-2002, 02:30 PM
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Nice lap writeup, Jason.
A couple of notes from the stock S2000 with street tires perspective:
T2) I tried both single and double apex lines, and wound up prefering double. At Doug Hayashi's suggestion, I switched to using second gear in T2, and that worked better for me, probably 'cause I'm going slower...
T5) This is a turn you can take at pretty much WOT from just after turn-in, once you have the faith.
T6) Similar deal: I could get on the throttle a lot sooner than I initially thought.
T7) I have some confusion as to where to position the car through here; can you offer more detail?
T8) Aim for the big oak, and get on the throttle as soon as you're going down hill.
T9) A little weird and difficult to find the right line.
Ted
A couple of notes from the stock S2000 with street tires perspective:
T2) I tried both single and double apex lines, and wound up prefering double. At Doug Hayashi's suggestion, I switched to using second gear in T2, and that worked better for me, probably 'cause I'm going slower...
T5) This is a turn you can take at pretty much WOT from just after turn-in, once you have the faith.
T6) Similar deal: I could get on the throttle a lot sooner than I initially thought.
T7) I have some confusion as to where to position the car through here; can you offer more detail?
T8) Aim for the big oak, and get on the throttle as soon as you're going down hill.
T9) A little weird and difficult to find the right line.
Ted
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01-18-2002, 02:36 PM
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Originally posted by Kevin_B
I tired it a couple of times and my M Coupe just feels like it hates that line! Maybe my pressures are screwed up or something, but with the stock tires and suspension, no matter how much slower I go into two, the car understeers like a b!tch. With R tires, I would surely have enough grip to take the double apex. On the stock setup, however, that line felt much slower. I would get at ~5mph slower on exit speed too. For what its worth, I don't swing completely wide on two, I just enter it at half track and try to come in for apex #2 as quickly as possible. Maybe I just need to practice the double apex line a bit more to get the most out of it. What's your take?
I tired it a couple of times and my M Coupe just feels like it hates that line! Maybe my pressures are screwed up or something, but with the stock tires and suspension, no matter how much slower I go into two, the car understeers like a b!tch. With R tires, I would surely have enough grip to take the double apex. On the stock setup, however, that line felt much slower. I would get at ~5mph slower on exit speed too. For what its worth, I don't swing completely wide on two, I just enter it at half track and try to come in for apex #2 as quickly as possible. Maybe I just need to practice the double apex line a bit more to get the most out of it. What's your take?
When the car is handling right and you execute the double-apex line properly it almost feels like one big arc... it's just that you initiate that arc at the 1 marker, and complete the arc at the exit curbing. Draw a nice, smooth arc from those two points that also crosses the 2 apexes and you have the proper line. I'll have to try and draw it and see if I can post. Larger radius = more cornering speed, and this line yields the largest radius.Nice meeting you, and don't worry about where you park... it just made it easier for you to find some oil!
See you next time!
01-18-2002, 02:42 PM
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Originally posted by Tedster
T9) A little weird and difficult to find the right line.
T9) A little weird and difficult to find the right line.
Good luck!
Cheers,
Kevin
