Elistan

These are my impressions of the three generations of S2000s. There's been a few threads of "should I buy an AP1 or AP2" recently, and plenty of CR debates. I thought it'd be useful to the community to post my impressions given my experiences with all three.

If anybody wants to turn this into yet another AP1 vs AP2 flame fest, I can't stop you, but I think you'd be an immature fool for doing so.

Anyway, my experiences have been:
- Purchased an AP1 in November 1999.
- It was showing its age a bit, so I wanted a refresh and purchased an AP2 in May 2004 without much of a test-drive before hand.
- The intention was to sell the AP1, but I ended up selling the AP2 a year later instead. I still have the original AP1.
- My girlfriend has a MY03 AP1, which has revised suspension compared my MY00.
- A CR owner let me drive his car at an autocross this past weekend during a fun run.

So, on to my personal opinions:
- I don't like the AP2 drive train. I think the reduced redline coupled with the shorter gearing makes for a car that's less fun to drive. I really enjoyed stretching the legs of the AP1 in 1st, and never felt it was lacking in any way, despite the numerous magazine articles to the contrary. At autocrosses, the typical course I ran required the AP2 to go between 2nd and third a few times each lap, while the AP1 could do most everything in 2nd only. I've always felt the heavier flywheel coupled with the CDV is a hack because the gearing, redline and VTEC transition point are mismatched in the AP2 - while you CAN shift from 1st to 2nd and remain in redline, it's only because of the built-in clutch slip. Shifting the AP1 for me is a more direct, enjoyable experience. My AP2 also had an annoying habit of the revs hanging in between shifts. Good for slow shifts I suppose, but again it detracted from that AP1 involvement.
- The CR felt different from what I remember my AP2 being like, though. Very smooth transition into VTEC, almost like there's no actual cam profile change. It felt like it had more overall acceleration as well. I'm told that Honda insiders insist there were no changes to the AP2 engine, but maybe it's just been a while since I drove an AP2, and maybe the DBW makes a difference too. Speaking of, if I hadn't known already, I never would have guessed it had DBW. Nice! I bounced of the rev limited accidentally a couple times, for two reasons - first, my brain just isn't trained for the sound of the earlier shift point, and second the transition to VTEC was so smooth I lost that additional indication of where in the rev range I was. And I still disliked the slower speeds at redline, and the slower clutch engagement.

- The 00-01 AP1 is indeed tail-happy. It's not a sudden snap oversteer, although it can certainly catch out anybody who's unfamiliar with the car - but given experience with how the car handles you can read the signs, and it can be controlled. But the car does want to give way in the rear before the front, and it limits how much gas you can give it coming out of a corner.
- The 02-03 AP1 is appreciably different. It still has the sharp turn-in of the 00-01, and it'll still easily wag the tail if you tell it to, but it'll stay planted a lot more, giving better corner exit speeds.
- The AP2 on stock RE050 tires has absolutely horrible understeer. It just plain sucks. But put on a proper set of 225 front / 255 rear tires and that goes away, fortunately. Then the car has really good balance - you can gas it all day long and get wonderful corner exits, and don't have to worry about giving much up for corner entries. In transitions though, the rear is very floaty. It simply doesn't want to take a set stance, so you have to do everything at a slightly slower pace. Ultimately, it's probably a touch faster, but certainly a lot less fun.
- The CR combines the best of both the AP1 and AP2. (Caveat - I didn't get a chance to talk to the owner about this, but I was told second hand that he has shocks installed for A-Stock competition.) I drove on the stock RE070 tires, and the cars damn near the perfect handling machine. I could stuff it hot into a corner, and it would just turn. I could mash the throttle and it would claw its way out of the corner. I could flick it side to side in a slalom and response was immediate. And it stayed composed over the rough surface we have here. Wow, I was impressed. I've driven an S2000 that handled as well, but it was on 10k/10k TEIN RA coilovers, was extremely stiff, and felt like it was skipping over those rough bits. I've driven an Elise that's stupid quick, but again at the expense of stiffness, and a touch of understeer if you get it wrong.

Regarding NVH - eh. I couldn't say one car is better than the others. That sort of thing isn't particularly important to me though, so there might be differences I simply haven't noticed.

Seats, shifter, entry/exit - all that's the same. (I didn't have any trouble with the changed CR shift knob, for what that's worth.) I have Wet Okole seat covers on my S2000, and didn't notice anything different with the CR seat material in terms of sliding around.

Edited to add:
The AP1 steering rack is back! The AP2 rack is noticeably slower than the AP1. It's still very quick, but jumping between the two made the difference obvious. I mean, my daily driver is a Tacoma and that steering is WAY slow. Anyway, the AP1 rack made the CR feel more lively than what I remember of my AP2. It was impossible to tell how much a difference the rack stiffener makes.

So there ya go. To sum up:
- If you want to get a car for driving enjoyment, get the CR. Hands down the best of the three in the handling department. (Although I'd like to personally spend more time in one, however, to see if I can overcome my dislike of the redline/gearing.)
- Of the AP1 and AP2, I would describe neither one as more or less raw than the other. They ain't Accords! They do, however, drive a good bit differently. It's just personal preference as to what you like best, what you can afford, and what condition you can find a particular specimen in.

- Oh yeah - styling. I thought the lip and wing worked well, and the Apex Blue is MUCH better in person. Lots of metallic flake - it's a very deep color.

sirbunz

I'm still waiting on the weather to get better and for the "break in" period to pass before I really get on mine. You say some custom shocks? I'm about to switch over my custom valve Konis to the CR along with a Gendron FSB and auto-x alignment. Was this CR already setup a similar way?

tekstar

Very nice writeup, thanks!

RED MX5

[QUOTE=Elistan,Mar 10 2008, 03:23 PM]These are my impressions of the three generations of S2000s.

alSpeed2k

Very interesting write-up. I guess the CR is built for handling well. I've never had a chance to drive an AP2 v1, I wonder how different it is compared to my v2 DBW?

Saki GT

I'll add to what you stated about the AP2 and handling and state that the OEM RE050 tires were horrible in their original rubber compound (Bridgestone did change the compoind in 2005 I believe)- they became greasy and floaty very easily, and disrupted the balance of the car. I also went to 225/255 widths when I went to RE050As, but I can say that the car handles much better in sweepers and transitions. I'd wager any S would feel great with RE070 as well. There is still understeer, but you can power out of it. In all, the transition to oversteer is much slower than it is in AP1s, for better or worse, although I will note that there are three rcent threads about AP1s spinning out here at S2ki and its one of the long-running criticisms about the early cars.

An AP2 handles very differently from an AP1, and thats where I think one of the biggest changes lies between the two cars - suspension - the other being gearing.

I also agree about the clutch system - Honda took a cop-out when it put in the heavier flywheel and lower redline. I'm not saying I don't like the slower shifting nature of the car, but the rest of the clutch system was not upgraded to handle the heavy flywheel, and redline has been shown to be safe at 8,500. Honda engineered slowness into the mechanics of the car, so its understandable that an AP1 driver would not like the muted feeling between the two models.

I enjoy the shorter gearing, and I don't think the CDV is as big an issue s you think it is, but the AP2 really needs the AP1 flywheel and a stronger pressure plate. The AP2 flywheel overpowers the rest of the clutch system and makes shifting sloppy if you try to shift too fast.

RadioZero

i posted this comment on another website because i have the CR suspension on my 2007 AP2:

"the CR suspension will put a smile on the hardcore AP1 owners face"

totally agree with the OP.

LEE72

Thanks for taking the time to write this review. Good stuff!

yellow2001

my biggest reason for not liking the ap2. the redine and shorter gearing. it changes the whole feel of the car. it is not as "raw" as some may put it.

mlc

Great write up! I was wondering what everyone thought of the AP1 with the UK alignment in it. I have an MY00 with that setup and it seems to take a little more concentration to drive on the highway but plants better when driven hard into corners.

By the way no matter what incarnation of this car we are discussing THIS IS A GREAT CAR!!

mlc