Originally Posted by FO2K,Apr 23 2005, 06:54 PM

I quoted you because I think you are incorrect in stating the synchros match the engine speed to the output shaft. Synchros match the drive shaft to the mainshaft and clutch plate. It is then neccesary to speed up or slow down the engine with the throttle before engaging the clutch.

Maybe a minor point, but I think it might help for people to understand the process.

Originally Posted by xviper,Apr 24 2005, 07:30 AM

First of all, "Woodwork" has advised against skip shifting, so I won't be saying it's OK to do it.

Originally Posted by xviper,Apr 23 2005, 07:22 PM

You can rev-match without double clutching. You can double clutch without rev-matching and you can rev-match AND double clutch. Oh and this has NOTHING to do with "heel/toe". This is yet another variable which may or may not be combined with everything else that I've listed.

Rev-matching is just bringing the engine rpm up or down to match the speed of the rear wheels when the next gear (up or down) is selected.
Double clutching is moving the shifter to NEUTRAL, then letting the clutch out so that the engine can control the speed of the transmission. Whether you wish to spin the tranny up or down will depend upon what you intend to do with the car at the time. Putting the tranny into neutral and leaving the clutch on the floor accomplishes nothing. This basically isolates all 3 components of the drivetrain from each other -- the engine, the tranny and the rear wheels. The engine will turn based on how much gas you give it. This will be independent of the tranny, which will spin itself down from the fluid viscosity within. BOTH of these will be independent of the rear wheels, which will be governed by the road speed. ALL 3 will do their own thing as long as you have the clutch on the floor. (The engine is NOT connected to the tranny which is NOT connected to the rear wheels.)
"Heel/toe" is using one foot to operate both the brake and gas pedal at the same time so you can maximize braking AND shift at the same time. This is generally done when going into a corner HOT and there is need to scrub off speed, yet prepare the tranny (putting it into a lower gear) so you can power out of the corner.

First gear on most manuals is hard to engage when on a roll and decelerating. This is because of the "blocker ring" that is built into most manuals. Because 1st gear's ratio is so far from the rest of the gears, manufacturers want to make it difficult to engage first if the road speed is too fast. However, the blocker ring can be defeated by double clutching and rev-matching should you have the need or the desire to continue driving and accelerate from whatever you were slowing down for. For those of you who find it easy to downshift into 1st gear at a high speed without double clutching and rev-matching, I contend that you have used so much force to engage 1st that you have worn down the blocker ring. Not a big deal but just know that it was there originally for a reason.

So come guys, read "How Stuff Works" and stop confusing yourselves.

Originally Posted by Intrepid175,Apr 24 2005, 06:18 PM

Actually, I thought the skip shifting only applied to upshifts. I never considered that it applied to downshifts. (?)

I often do 6-4, 5-3, or even 6-3 downshifts depending on the circumstances and have had no issues or protests from my transmission that I can detect. I always "rev match" when doing this and have "double clutched" too but I'm not as proficient at that as I'd like to be.

Just wondering!

Drive Safe,
Steve R.

Originally Posted by blue03s2k,Apr 23 2005, 03:48 PM

^ say what??? a double clutch is also known as rev matching........ there's no need to do it on an upshift.. (thats why we have syncros).... it's only needed when downshifting...... heal toe is relatively the same thing as double clutching/rev matching....

Originally Posted by xviper,Apr 23 2005, 08:22 PM

First gear on most manuals is hard to engage when on a roll and decelerating. This is because of the "blocker ring" that is built into most manuals. Because 1st gear's ratio is so far from the rest of the gears, manufacturers want to make it difficult to engage first if the road speed is too fast. However, the blocker ring can be defeated by double clutching and rev-matching should you have the need or the desire to continue driving and accelerate from whatever you were slowing down for. For those of you who find it easy to downshift into 1st gear at a high speed without double clutching and rev-matching, I contend that you have used so much force to engage 1st that you have worn down the blocker ring. Not a big deal but just know that it was there originally for a reason.

So come guys, read "How Stuff Works" and stop confusing yourselves.

Originally Posted by Triple-H,Apr 25 2005, 07:41 AM

I disagree about me having worn down any type of blocker ring. My car as you witnessed shift into 1st from 2nd with a smooth heal/toe and rev matched shift just fine. I have never had to force the shift lever. It drops right into 1st about the same as it shift up to 2nd from 1st.

Originally Posted by xviper,Apr 25 2005, 09:55 AM

I think your car is not the "norm" in this regard. Most S2000's will have a very evident blocker ring. Like I said at the time, your car's ability to shift easily into 1st at any road speed is quite baffling. You should go drive other S2000s, primarily ones that have never been track driven to see the difference. Blocker rings are a mechanical fact. I don't just dream this stuff up. It's also possible that you double clutch rev match so fast that it's hard to detect with the naked eye and ear. To test this theory out, try to engage 1st when decelerating from 2nd when you hit about 25 mph, but simply let off the gas and push the clutch in and try to get into 1st. If you still don't feel any resistance, I would propose that there is definately something abnormal about your transmission.