Seeking S2000 experts and gurus (maybe someone like Xviper...)!!!
 

Hi,

So last Tuesday, I finally had a chance to take my S to a track to have a little fun with her. It was my first time. I learned that an S has a tendency to fish-tail in the corner if pushed hard.

Anyhoo, when I took her in a turn and pushed the gas too hard, the car spun; I lost control as it swerved left and right, then spun around a 180-degree turn. Well, then the engine died. I tried to turn it on the first few times but to no avail. Finally, after the first few times, it turned on, but very weakly. Now, it turns on normally, but doesn't seem to be driving right. I think it rattles more than usual, and runs a little rougher.

Now, here's where you experts/gurus come in: have I severely damaged anything? If so, what could they be--suspension, differential, engine, etc.? I'm taking it to a dealership to have them take a look at it today, but I'm afraid they won't be able to find anything wrong. So, who's better to ask than the owners themselves, right? Especially the ones who have plenty of track experience or knowledge in that department of mischief.

Well, gurus, please answer me if you have pretty good ideas of what might have occurred from that mishap. By the way, whoa! I was stunned; my heart stopped beating for a second. Please advise! I'm at work right now, so I'll be checking back once in a while before I take it to the dealership. Thank you! :thumbup:

During/after the spin, did the car/tires roll backwards (reverse) while the clutch was engaged(in a drive gear)? I've heard it's bad for the car's momentum to push the engine backwards, but can't comment on specific damage.

Question: when you spun the car was the clutch in or out? and what kind of rattle do you hear and when do you hear it?

Just for my own knowledge since I haven't YET been to the track, when in the situation, should one press the clutch or not? My gut reaction would be yes, but I wanted to confirm. sorry for the dumb question.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by munckee
[B]Just for my own knowledge since I haven't YET been to the track, when in the situation, should one press the clutch or not?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by munckee
[B]Just for my own knowledge since I haven't YET been to the track, when in the situation, should one press the clutch or not?

That's what I thought. Thanks!

I've read this, but don't really know how true this is ... so hopefully an expert will confirm.

If you end up rolling backwards from a sudden spin and don't clutch in fast enough you will stall the engine and spin it backwards. It momentarily suck exhaust. I think there will be some unburnt fuel thrown in there too. This would would foul the spark plugs. I suppose if it was severe enough you might have to swap out the spark plugs.

FYI xviper is on vacation.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by munckee
[B]Just for my own knowledge since I haven't YET been to the track, when in the situation, should one press the clutch or not?

It happened so quickly that I don't remember if the clutch was pressed in. If I had to do it again, I think I would've steered it better. As for the rattles, I guess they're from the front and back. I just noticed more racketty noises.

So none of you know about the possible damages? Oh, where is the man--Xviper? :LOL: Well, at least from the informative posts I've read of his, he would have an idea. So you don't know why the car didn't turn back on the first few "pushes of the button", then finally turned on very weakly? It had to do something with the spark plugs, huh? Anyhoo, I already made an appointment with a dealership for them to take a look at it. I was hoping they would've done it today, but who knew I was supposed to make an appointment. :D

Well, for you future trackers (or is it trackies?), the S has a huge tendency to fishtail, so be careful not to push too hard in the corners.

i've been told that when you spin out the fuel in the tank is moved back and forth, causing some spots to not contain fuel, so when you tried to start it that's probably what happened. once the fuel has stoped moving so much, the car should start. i'm not sure how true that is, but it makes perfect sense to me.

uh you might want to get your car looked at...

Uh, thanx for the advice, but I think that's what the appt. at the dealership is for. Sorry, don't mean to be a smartass or anything. However, I wanted to see what the S2000 experts, who happen to be owners themselves, would have to say.

1)Sorry, I didn't see anything in your post about a dealer appointment.

2)There is an S2000 in the family, which I have spun, it's just that the VIN got logged into a screenname other than this one, which was then abandoned but not erased, so I can't log it in.

3) no worries, I'm often a smartass myself :p

First, xviper is on vacation. Last I heard he was in Victoria, BC after having come to visit us in Seattle on Tuesday night.

Second, if the clutch was not depressed when the car rolled back it is likely that some internal damage could have been done.

Depending on the speeds and severity of the spin, I would not expect any significant suspension damage, though doing that too many times will definitely lead to an early failure of suspension parts.

I would expect any damage to be either engine or differential.

It's never easy to diagnose these things over the internet, but if you can further identify the location and type of the sounds you hear that concern you it might be helpful in giving you a better idea of what sorts of things to look out for.

I know...I know...this wasn't a very helpful response, but hopefully with a little more information from you some likely culprits can be identified.

Do you hear the sounds whilst in neutral and revving the engine? If so you've probably got some engine damage. Could be a belt valve or rod or worse (sorry).

If the problem only occurs when rolling then the problem is more probably drive train or suspension. If you got a big knock on one of the wheels it can cause the axle to bend and the wheel will spin badly.

As you can tell, the diagnosis really depends on when the problem occurs.

It's unlikely that you've hurt anything internally with the engine. When it comes to spinning the engine backwards, about the only thing that is affected is the snatch that the cam chain is subjected to. The reason for this is that the ignition timing is predicated upon a certain amount of advance and that can only be achieved if the crankshaft/camshafts are turning in the correct direction. By spinning the engine backwards, ignition timing is severely retarded. . . if in fact it even fires at all. Think about it for a minute. Power is generated by burning the a/f mixture at a certain "timing" during the crankshaft revolution which is determined by the ignition MAP sensor information. As a matter of fact, back in the early 70's, Yamaha made a little dirt bike with a 60cc 2-stroke engine that would actually run backwards. While this isn't really comparable to our engine, it's interesting to note. What made this particular engine able to run backwards was it's square design(the bore was the same as the stroke). It ran like crap backwards due to the reverse in ignition timing, but it WOULD run backwards.

I did the same thing the first time I took mine on the track. Mine wouldn't start either. But the reason mine wouldn't start was because with my heart pounding and my hands shaking, I completely forgot about the Start button and sat there breathing rubber and turning the key for about half a minute, even though I'd been driving the car for at least a year. So you handled yourself a lot better than I did.

So they have mechanics in heaven? And car dealerships? What next, lawyers?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by CutieBonny
[B]Well, then the engine died.

Sounds like a reasonable theory. I've seen it happen when sport bikes are dropped. It takes a few starts to start them. However, I do not know if the same applies to cars. A bike being dropped (fuel tank would be then on it's side) seems a lot different than a car being spun around.

Your electronic engine control may have been "upset" by the spin. You can reset the ECU either by removing the ground cable from your battery for several minutes, or use this library topic https://www.s2ki.com/article/articleview/5/1/8/

If you remove the ground cable on the battery, you'll have to re-enter your radio code and reset the presets on the radio.

Thanks, everyone for the responses! I hope everything will be fine once it's checked by the dealership. So far, it seems to be fine, but just to be sure, they'll be checking the suspension as well.

On a different note, so when the car starts to oversteer, push on the gas more to correct it? I thought it was the other way around; lighten the gas and correctly steer the car out of a fishtailing situation.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by CutieBonny
[B]Thanks, everyone for the responses!

I've found most of the car's oversteer is usually throttle induced by an over-aggressive driver. If you get on the gas too early while exiting a corner, the rear will step out on you. In this situation, a little throttle lift is the correct method to straighten the car out. But as previously stated, if you have the car in a sweeper and are at the limit of adhesion, throttle lift will get the car rotating. Not always a complete spinout, but it will definitely lighten up the rear end. My most violent spinout was VTEC induced. Don't cross 6000 rpms at the apex of a corner. My more typical spins are from coming into sweepers just way too hot. In that case, there's nothing you can do. You should have braked more, and you're paying the price.

Your motor is fine. You stalled it. It took a few seconds to settle down and start back up. Not a big deal. There won't be any damage.

It's not "abnormal" to be not able to immediately restart our car after a severe spin sometimes, if the engine dies. Why that is, I don't know. There's a thread talking about just that. All I know is it does not seem to damage the engine.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by spider
[B]It's not "abnormal" to be not able to immediately restart our car after a severe spin sometimes, if the engine dies.

"oil got thrown around"...what nonsense - there should be a law that if someone is clueless, they should keep quiet - that dealer is full of beans.

There are some cars where there is a mercury switch that cuts off electrical power to the started if a car spins wildly or flips - this is done to reduce chance of fire - Fords have this - not aware that Honda does.

You may have flooded the engine - to deal with that, floor the accelerator while cranking until the engine catches, then of course let up immediately. I have seen a number of Hondas by the roadside with distressed owners, and the few times I have stopped, I was able to get the car running again immedfiately by using the "flood clear" mode.

You need to disconnect the main fuse in the engine compartment for a few seconds, then it will be fine.

I'm Surprised you fishtailed at all??

I tracked my car when it was 2 days old, and got it to drift, but never to fishtail...

Were you running stock rubber? how much tread? and did someone leak something on the track?

In my experience, i've only gotten it to fishtail, when I took a street turn way too fast, or it was intentional...

Hope it all turns out well!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Road Rage
[B]"oil got thrown around"...what nonsense - there should be a law that if someone is clueless, they should keep quiet - that dealer is full of beans.

Fishtailing is when the rear gets too "happy" and starts to slide sideway, right? If so, then it's very very easy to get an S to fishtail. Just give it gas coming out of an apex and it'll fishtail.

Anyhoo, my rear tires are Yoko ES100, 245/16; pretty new too. My fronts are still stock. I'm going to upgrade to 18" wheels and 265/18 in the rear. Hopefully, fatter tires will reduce fishtailing a little.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by CutieBonny
[B]

Fishtailing is when the rear gets too "happy" and starts to slide sideway, right?

There are many things that can cause an S2000 to oversteer or fishtail. Tires, alignment, driver input, ect. I spun my car many times on the track and once or twice it didn't want to restart. One time I removed the key and put it back in and it started right up, the other time it started after a few seconds. I've seen several S2000's do this and I wouldn't be the least bit worried about it or any suspension damage. In fact I think you'll be throwing money away taking it to the dealer. Just my opinion of course.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by CutieBonny
[B]
Anyhoo, my rear tires are Yoko ES100, 245/16; pretty new too.

I 2nd that, but I think you meant 205/245 with stock suspension. 225/245 will tune the car toward oversteer...

[QUOTE]Originally posted by CutieBonny
[B]

That makes sense!

Fishtailing and spinning out are different as I apply them - fishtailing is caused by a sudden swerve, and then an overreacting steer the other way (or compensating too late) causing a loss of control. This can be side to side until eventually you hit something, stop, or spinout.

In driving school, one is taught the physics of it, and then taught how as soon as one swerves, to plan the compensating steering the other way. Most people wait too long. After you do it a few times, it becomes automatic (Zen?), just like how to apply opposite lock when in a skid (terminal under/oversteer) condition.

BTW, in driving school, a skid is defined as anytime one wheel is moving faster than antoehr - it is a matter of controlling the skid. Any turn is therefore a spin, just a question of control and getting through the corner. It is amazing, but after several days of instruction and track time, you will find that almost any skid can be controlled. I swear that I saw the tail end of my car out of the corner of my eye (more than 45 deg of skid angle) and yet recovered.

When my 5-year old daughter is ready to drive, she and I will attend such a driving school so she learns how to drive the right way, and that skid correction, trail braking, oppopsite lock, etc are terms she does not confuse.

..oh yeah...and fishtailing.

I know this is off topic but why does cutiebonny get to use a custom avatar without being a member?

Everyone has offered some very good insight to what may/may not be wrong with your vehicle. I'm not a combustion engine expert but you'll get the same problem mowing your grass, if you whack a clump of something and it kills the motor, you'll have to yank the pull start a few times to get it going, then it idles funny, smoke blows out and it eventually returns to normal operation after a few seconds.

I would go with what others have suggested, reset the ECU and check your plugs, both are easy do-at-home tasks. Having the service department check it out can't hurt too much either unless they do find damage and say it was owner negligence that caused it.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Road Rage
[B]"oil got thrown around"...what nonsense - there should be a law that if someone is clueless, they should keep quiet - that dealer is full of beans.

You can have a custom avatar if you're an owner. They got reset when the guests lost their sig/av privileges.

I think you could accomplish the same result if you have fuel in the cylinder that was not ignited due to a stall. I'm sure more fuel could have been added if the injectors still flowed with no electrical to the ignition coils as well.

Just saw this thread. I guess I'm too late for the party, huh?
Anyway, Road Rage has given the most concise advice here. It's too bad that you had to go to the dealer. This obviously has sorted itself out on its own. Spinning like that, stalling and "possibly" turning the engine backwards momentarily, can cause all sorts of "little" issues that gave you the symtoms you have described, many of which have been mentioned here.
Next time (hopefully there won't be a next time), just do what Road Rage said. It certainly wouldn't hurt to reset the ECU either but do it under the dash by pulling the "BACK UP" fuse for 1/2 a minute or so. As long as you didn't collide with anything, your car should be fine. You just gave its brains a bit of a nightmare. When I have a nightmare, I wish someone could come along and reset my brain so I don't have to remember it. ;)

never mind...

[QUOTE]Originally posted by xviper
[B]Just saw this thread.

Almighty automotive god :bow: :bow: :bow: :p

HEY ........................ Mr. \"MEMBER\".:thumbup: ;)

I have been validated by the Father....:bow:

for the doubters among you on RR's credibility, I found this in a Honda Forum:
"Jim Grant's Tech Tips

How to Start a Flooded Car Engine
Q: Would you explain what could be reasons for flooding of an engine and how to start the car if flooding has occurred?...Lal Singh

A: So we

You rang?

Geez! You put up a BIG "member" and there's always somebody who comes along to claim it! ;)