I don't agree with this guy's point of view. He sez:
>>>Trail-braking is a subtle driving technique that allows for later braking and increased corner entry speed. The classical technique is to complete braking before turn-in. This is a safer, easier technique for the driver because it separates traction management into two phases, braking and cornering, so the driver doesn't have to chew gum and walk at the same time, as it were.<<<

And *I* sez: it is easier to get a car to turn in when you're still on the brakes. Also, chewing gum and walking at the same time is easier than trying to walk, then stop and chew gum, and then stop chewing gum and start walking again. The human brain is totally capable of handling trail-braking, and in fact it makes life much easier than trying to divvy it up into SOLELY concentrating on braking, then getting TOTALLY off the brakes, and *then* turning in.


He sez:
>>>With the trail-braking technique, the driver carries braking into the corner, gradually trailing off the brakes while winding in the steering. Since braking continues in the corner, it's possible to delay its onset in the preceding straight braking zone. Since it eliminates the sub-optimal moments between the ramp-down from braking and the ramp-up to limit cornering by overlapping them, entry speeds can be higher. The combination of these two effects means that the advantage of later braking is carried through the first part of the corner.<<<

And *I* sez, there's more benefit to trail-braking than increased corner entry speed. Trail-braking encourages rotation, making corner entry far easier than if you try to do it totally off the brakes.

At the track, if you *force* drivers to brake only in a straight line, you will only hinder their progress.

Trail-braking is *not* an "advanced technique". All of my students do it from day one.

I agree with you here. I went to my first autocross, in my first RWD car, my 03 S. I had no instruction. There were 6 other stock S2k's there. All of them had been to autocrosses before and the one's who had instructors were told to brake hard as you can, stop braking, turn in, accerate after the apex. I drove with one guy also as a passanger.

Seemed like a totally unnatural way to drive. I didn't like it. I had always heard throughtout my life, "smooth is fast". Slow inputs equal fast laps.

So, doing it "my way", which felt much more natural, I had the second best time of the day in the S2k's!

I was happy, and the other guys were surprised. When I described to them how I drove, they all said "hey, that's the exact opposite of what our instructors told us!"

There is a lot of good information on this thread:


I have had a number of experiences with the AP1 of snap oversteer:

Here is the current configuration:

S2000 Y2000
Suspension: KW variant 1 coilover suspension
Tires: 225 Front Dunlop Direzza Z1 Star Specs
Tires: 255 Rear Dunlop Direzza Z1 Star Specs,
Alignment: USDM OEM Specification:
-Height reduction 1.0" all four.

I have been told to remove the rear tie bar:
-effectively should give front bar more stiffness,
-gives rear chassis slightly more flex

removing the rear tie bar does not necessarily help with removing snap oversteer, however it does help with delay the onset of snap oversteer by a fraction of a second, the fraction of a second would definitely help on the track, having the extra time to recover significantly helps.


Increase Front stabilizer bar strength
-Gives better rigidity at the front, much sharper turnin
-Effectively makes the rear stiffness-not as stiff as the front

the front stabilizer will give the car an even more of a go cart feeling, although the suspension in DD may fell a little more choppier, slightly only.


"Snap-Countersteer" -I've yet to try this, however I'd imagine it may actually work.
-during progression of turn; be ready to immediately countersteer by "snapping" the countersteer
-yes, snapping; steering very briskly!

-maintain throttle application
-Vehicle "slips" or enters "snap oversteer"
-initate "snap countersteer", fairly quickly
-vehicle direction will be corrected; and will begin to violently "snap back"
-This is where the part is soo important, just after your initial "snap - countersteer...
-IMMEDIATELY SNAP the steering to NEUTRAL.
-vehicle SHOULD "snap" back into neutral


This is just theory, but it's quite interesting watching american touge BMI tsuchiya execute this technique, it is an very advanced technique that is used very rarely in highly neutral vehicles. He would
"snap counter steer" nearly 2 times the rotating steering wheel rotation and immediately "snap" back the steering to neutral, he executes this technique soo flawlessly. That is why he is a race car driver. I will try this at the autox course, I'd like to see how this technique could be used, although it may be a form of drifting, but it could also be seen as an advanced technique to recover from spins.


"stiffen rear suspension bound and rebound"
-less suspension travel the rear has to go through, the less deflection of toe-in change will occur
-ride quality will suffer tremendously if the suspension is highly tuned for the track
-increasingly higher grip profile tires can possibly bottom out soft suspension, meaning too much grip
for the suspension setting to handle
-match the suspension with tire grip. ensure suspension makes it difficult for tire grip to compress suspension in cornering.

Again the above is just theory,


here are other factors that will affect snap oversteer:
Wider tire tread width
-yields a higher limit, however when surpassed, extremely difficult to recover from snap oversteer!

Grippier tire
-Again yields a higher limit, in combination with the wider width, the rear may have an increased
limit, however the snap oversteer, when it does happen, is increasingly difficult to manage, even catastrophic!


So here is an update of a KWv1 review, alittle irrelvant however, the KWV1 and the spoon front and rear bumpsteers really help with taming the snap oversteer.
I found "digging" -cornering more aggressively is a little slower and the car approaches the limit much slower than before. It does rotate even more (due to the dynamic camber gain from the BSK) I find that the cornering is a little more stable, however it feels more like an AP2 I have the front and rear bump steer kit from Spoon. I'm glad that I have it because the AP1 DOES require it. I would recommend anyone that wants a safer car, do so to have it installed. I would also recommend that the KW V1 as an excellent entry level coilover system here is the review. Warning.. It is a little long, but I felt i needed to share this information:

KW Variant 1 review

Thank you for coming to this thread / post. I have the KW V1 coilover system for almost 2 years now and very satisfied with the product. For this review the 2000 Honda S2000 is the host adopting KWV1 coilover system. Please note that all this information present my not be 100% correct and I cannot be held liable for this information present, used or quoted whatsoever. I am simply sharing my views and of course, any useful and insightful feedback of a discussionary nature would also be highly welcome!

Immediately there are two springs, one is flat wound and the main spring is circular cold wound with spring bridge to seat connect both springs 80N/mm meeting spring rates.

The flat wound (which could be pressed almost halfway with hand) helper spring shows stamp of 40-80 (I hypothesized German units are in N/mm) It is also interesting to note, that if you ask KW reps, they will not disclose the rates because they do not actually have operating rates because it is a progressive rate. KW engineering does however stamp the unsprung and crush rate. (zero load to absolute press); Having progressive is very nice, infact perfect which makes it an excellent blend between quite acceptable street commute and medium track duty; as illustrated below

Here we will discuss the smaller helper spring, the helper spring will sit fully crushed while the car is static. Meaning the rate of the main spring starts at 457 lb/in / 8.16 kg/mm also note the S2000 CR spring rate is slightly lower; if Honda had made a S2000 type R, the spring rates would have been similiary matched with V1 spring rates. I believe KW used this helper spring almost universally because it is more economical to manufacture two separate springs instead of 1 spring starting at 40N/mm up to 120N/mm.

Conversion (kg/mm > lbs/in *56)

Helper Spring
40-80N/mm or
4.02 kg/mm to 8.16 kg/mm or
228 lb/in to 457 lb/in

Main Spring
kwV1 80-120 N/mm 8.16kg/mm - 12.2 kg/mm prog fr 457lb/in - 685 lb/in
kwV1 80-120 N/mm 8.16kg/mm - 12.2 kg/mm prog rr 457lb/in - 685 lb/in
S2000 CR 7.00kg/mm - linear front 392lb/in
S2000 CR 6.20kg/mm - linear rear 347lb/in
S2000 ap1 3.90kg/mm - linear front 219lb/in
S2000 ap1 5.19kg/mm - linear rear 291lb/in

Progressive Rate
If we are talking about cornering, handling, braking and acceleration; The only disadvantage of a progressive rate is the initial bound travel of the spring will be slightly longer before accessing higher spring rates; the advantage on the other hand is you get compliant and comfortble ride (90% of the driving is not spirited). Having a progressive spring is also interesting because you get the initial give and it becomes stronger as you utilize the car more. I personally like the progessive and stronger sway bar because the straight line driving is comfortable, and hard cornering is easily accessible due to increased rates of spring and stronger sway bar.

Linear Rate
Linear rates are more chosen for track applications. It is a constant rate even static to dynamic bound. Having the linear rate is interesting because you get immediate feedback all the way to the crush; I believe all the S2000 springs are designed to be linear.

KWv1 - street, medium track duty
KWV2 - Comfort Street to heavy track duty
KWV3 - super comfort Street to Competative track duty


Spring rates and how people as a general range of drivers feel about them; now tthese rates are completey based on average cars and each car has their own weight affecting spring rates etc.

100lb/in very soft luxury car
150lb/in suv/sedans/coupes most production cars
200lb/in sedans/coupes touring style springs
250lb/in most sports car spring rates are around this rate
300lb/in Most factor sport tuned rates; quite sloppy for track driving
350lb/in highly tuned from factory rates; once awhile track driving ie 1x / year
400lb/in most tuner springs / light track duty is possible
450lb/in limit of "comfortable" / acceptable rate for most people
500lb/in medium tuned for track duty auto x enthusiast
600lb/in medium tuned for track duty; seeing important bound/rebound adjustments
700lb/in indepedant bound/rb adjustments. not acceptable for street
800lb/in more agressive rate, stronger sway bars required, autox serious drivers
900lb/in race tuning average spring rate; linear; rocker ratios are considered
1000lb/in serious competition spring rates; usually circuit cars
1100lb/in R-comp tires are perfect for these types of rates. top competitors of autox
1200lb/in Tire contact patch rates start making differences
1700lb/in stiff as it gets, special order, springs as thick as 6mm are seen
5000lb/in Highest F1 spring rate

V1 shows excellent progression of spring rate simply because the starting static rate is 457lb/in; which is an excellent sporty bias rate for sporty driving. It is also interesting to note that during near half the compression rate of the main spring (on cornering) the spring progressively becomes like the V3 Spring rate (at its beginning compression bound rate of 550lb/in), and higher all the way up to 12.2 kg/mm which is quite a stiff rate, nevertheless a high grip tire can impart full crush on the main springs. YOu can effectively increase spring rate with stiff sway bars, which I will discuss below.

Also note; the helper will then extend from crush position should be extension of the main spring once re-bound exceeds the main spring unsprung length to maintain spring mounting of the main spring. essentially the two springs behave like 1 spring, with the exception is the help spring is specifically crushed at 80N/mm compression. Essentially the helper spring only works when the vehicle is under rebound.

As load is applied from lateral acceleration, the spring will start to behave like a 10k spring. upon heavy loads it begins to hit the max 685 lb/in ~12k spring; however with the addition of sway bars, the sway bars offers additional resistance to roll which is imparted to the springs as dynamics spring rate will change. hopefully the sway bars can help prevent main spring full crush (MSFC) when under extreme loads. With high performance tires, the grip levels are even higher, making full compression a possibility; higher rate springs and matching sway bars are required. even with a sway bar and suspension capable of track duty, I found the springs should be stiffer, I rather have the V2 for the track days to fully potentiate suspension tuning from the high level platform of tuning.

Now the additional sway bar (high stiff sway bars) from AP1 as an example delivers 135 lb/in of "effective" spring rate. adding about 135 to the 457 through 685 makes it:
592lbs/in - 820 lbs/in
103 N/mm - 144 N/mm
10.5 kg/mm - 14.6 kg/mm
If stiffer sway bars are used, normal commuting comfort is negligiably sacrificed while the handling performance of an effective increase on the spring rate will significantly contribute to cornering speeds ie. off ramp merges, auto x track etc.

It is interesting to note that KW motorsports are the only company to make the use of a 7-post dyno system to document spring and shock performance

I found that the driving comfort of the vehicle is quite acceptable, considering driving 90% of the time is normal driving, only 10% is spirited driving, this coilover system spans the range of acceptable driving and high performance. As a summary, KWv1 are more sporty, more poised and extremely responsive. I would highly recommend V1 coilover system with progressive nature (if the buyer has purchase budget in mind). In fact this progressive spring coilover system is as good as progressive rates get. I purchased these coilovers for an amazing price of $1272CAD. Difference being from V1 and V3 is around 1500 +/- 300.



I could have went with KWV3, however to make use of the adjustability out of driving 100 times, I would have adjusted it once for track duty, this I could not justify the purchase price of $2800. If your car sees regular track or competative duty; I would recommend the V3 or Clubsport; If one is to go to the track much more often, than V3 product would make much more sense. Even with the KWv1 and stiffer sway bars, it definitely meets track duty; not a problem at all. I also enjoy the height adjustability of course, making a final heigh adjustment is to achieve a specific suspension tuning, too low is actually not good, but slightly lower 1.5 is even better and set it there. Although I do desire the adjustability of v2 it would be nice considering bound and rebound adjustments (used in track more likely) although not necessary.

Yeah, I'd lump the "don't trail-brake" folks in with the "remove the rear sway bar" people. I guess if you don't want your car to rotate, then sure. Some people are going to feel more confident and be able to be faster in a car that understeers a lot. They probably should have bought a 350Z to start with, but whatever floats their boat. :) Personally I run a stiffer than stock rear bar (although combined with a very stiff front bar), and the car still defaults to mild understeer at steady throttle.

If I went to non-staggered, I would either need to return to the stock rear bar or add rear downforce to make the car safely understeer at high speeds.

I have actually crashed this car due to oversteer that I couldn't control, but I take full responsibility for MY LACK OF TALENT as the culprit. A few minutes on a skidpad at a HPDE taught me a lot about how to catch the car when it over-rotates. The trick is just to be very fast and aggressive with your corrections, and just as fast and aggressive with returning to neutral. Point being, the car was handling great, I was just driving crappy. :)

I didn't read the link on the guy's advice on trail-braking but my understanding of it is the following and has worked pretty well for me. The tire has limited amounts of traction, in this case let's just say 100%. Now there are 3 main driving situations that strain that traction:

1) Accelerating
2) Braking
3) Turning

If you are in a straight line, you can use 100% of your traction to accelerate and brake without worrying about spinning (given you don't overpower your tires by burning out causing wheel spin or locking your tires causing a slide). Now turning can also max out the 100% and you can lose traction from carrying too much speed thought a turn. That is going over 100% of the tires' traction. Understeer and oversteer are both symptoms of exceeding traction in the front and rear respectively.

One can brake/gas and turn in any ratio desired as long as maximum traction is not exceeded, for example 50% for turning and 50% for braking, or 20% turning 80% accelerating, etc. A track instructor once explained it as having a string attached to your big toe and to the bottom of the steering wheel which is taut when the steering wheel is straight and your foot fully down on a pedal. As you turn the bottom of the steering wheel moves higher and your foot must move up incrementally to accommodate it. That's how it should work in theory.

Now the tricky part is that traction is not constant. It changes with road condition, temperature, elevation change, tire composition, weight transfer, etc. The only thing you can really control from the cockpit is weight transfer through the 3 elements stated above. So in essence you're juggling these three things with you hands and feet to maximize traction in the direction you want to go. A commonly known example of this is braking hard in a turn which causes the rear to lift and leads to reduced traction in the rear. This sets you up to spin (oversteer) more easily since you have less that 100% traction in the rear to work with. And as we all know, once you lose it it's hard to get back depending on operator skill and how far over you went.

Oh, forgot my main point. Unless you know what you're doing with weight transfer, it's hard to increase your limits as a driver. Understanding the dynamics of how weight is transferred is crucial to maximizing speed so slow down until you get properly acquainted. :hello:

great thread, read it from top to bottom before my first track day just a few days ago. not only my first track day in the S2000 but my first time in a RWD car. overall, the car is amazingly balanced. yes, the bias is toward oversteer but i found it very controllable. the tail started to slide several times(mostly in the tighter corners) but i just kept my foot on the throttle and used subtle steering input to correct the angle of the car and it snapped right back into line. it really seemed like the more i stayed on the throttle the more it wanted to grip. it's very responsive handling wise, i suppose you just have to be giving it the right input! looking forward to getting to know the car and it's limits more in the future...

This also mirror's my first autocross experience.

The problem is that ALL of the instructors drive/drove cars that are set up specifically for AutoX, whereas mine was not.

End result: I was faster driving how I felt was right.

I agree. My experience over the years of owning the S2000 have given me a couple of impressions regarding the handling characteristics in stock trim. Yes, there is gobs of grip available from the rear with a smooth weight transfer via throttle application. Getting back into the gas early really seems to suit this car, planting the rear for good apex and exit speed. The other big trait is the peaky limit of adhesion. It lets go and regains grip very abruptly compared to a lot of other RWD vehicles. The upside is that it is very predictable in the way it does this and responds well to correction, staying in the throttle is crucial. Get to know the characteristics and develop a rapport and you realize it does a good job of doing what you tell it. This car is definitely not a zero to hero ride, garbage in -> garbage out. Get it right, however, and this thing is a hoot. Nice looking ride, enjoy.