soundzero

That is the throttle steering I was taught by a pro race car driver. Tire pressure? Alignment? Description of the Throttle Steering by Euro Tuner is also in line with my explanation. Yours? not sure where you came up with yours.

RED MX5

It all depends. Most tires generate maximum grip at around 5-degrees of slip, and with a totally neutral car maximum cornering speed is reached when all four tires are working at equal slip angles and the steering pointed straight ahead (that's the only way all four tires can be generating equal slip angles). Once you're in a four wheel drift (the old school name for cornering with all four tires working at equal slip angles and the steering straight ahead) you can tighten the turn by increasing the slip angle of the rear tires or decreasing the slip angle of the front tires. Likewise, you can widen the turn by incerasing the slip angles of the front tires or reducing the slip angle of the rear tires. Since you are already near the tires optimal slip angle a little power to the driven wheels increases their slip angle (so RWD tightens, FWD widens).

As XViper pointed out, drifting also involves some steering with the throttle, but I consider it a totally different animal, because the large slip angles we use in drifting are NOT the fastest way. They're fun, but not fast.

mikegarrison

It is not a way to correct turn entry speeds. Use braking for that.

It is usually the fastest way to exit the corner, though. Here's a typical high speed sweeper corner (driven by a pretty advanced driver):

Upon entering the braking zone you brake and downshift, matching revs by blipping the throttle. Continue braking while turning in (so that you have the weight over your front wheels) and then ease off the brake as your car builds up to the maximum lateral Gs. As soon as you can, (usually way before the apex) start easing onto the throttle.

[Here's where throttle steering comes in.] Give the car as much throttle as it will take and still be able to follow the line you want. In most cases, if the car is going out too wide, back off the throttle (which really means don't add it as fast). If the car is not going to use all of the track, give it a little more throttle until it slides on out to the edge.

As you are giving it more and more throttle you will also be easing off the steering angle from the steering wheel. It's all a matter of feel and looking ahead to where you want the car to go.

The reason this is fast is because you are choosing to use the tire's grip to accelerate rather than using it to turn. If you are throttle steering out of the corner you are almost by default all the way out on the edge of the friction circle, at least for one set of your tires.

However, this is harder on your tires than some other methods, so it may be faster in a short race but slower in a race where you have to try to use the same set of tires over and over and over again. If you get them too hot, the grip level goes down.

RED MX5

[QUOTE=soundzero,Jul 5 2006, 12:06 AM]That is the throttle steering I was taught by a pro race car driver.

RED MX5

As usual, I find no flaw in your explination.

Since you know so much of this kind of thing so much better than most of the rest of us maybe you can help determine whether a problem I'm having is the car or the driver. LOL, naturally I'm inclined to want to fix it by changing the setup, but if it's really me then I'd much rather go after the root cause. Maybe this is even on-topic for this thread.

I tend to be very smooth. When I'm slow (which is all too often) it is due to other vices, but I'm always smooth. On corner exit when I start to apply the throttle I do so at a rate that keeps the car balanced, so weight doesn't shift off the front tires enough to prevent the rear tires from sliding first. In reading your post I realized that I might actually need to get on the gas a little harder on exit, to get more weight off the front tires. However, I'm already feeding throttle as quickly as the rear tires can put it to the ground, so to get more weight transfer I'd have to have more grip available at the back, which whould mean a somewhat slower entry speed. I've been thinking that I need more roll resistance up front, or less in the back, but maybe I just need to drop my cornering speed and goose the throttle a little to get weight shifted. It's just counter intuitive ... Am I preventing myself from getting the front tires to slide at all due to carrying too much speed through the apex?

RED MX5

[QUOTE=soundzero,Jul 5 2006, 12:03 AM]The poster drives S2000.

mikegarrison

Could be. "Slow in, fast out" and all that. What have you done to your car to make it so prone to oversteer? Mine is basically stock, but I'm now running -2.5 camber in the front and -3.0 camber in the rear. This still understeers (stock tire stagger, stock suspension, etc.) but is a lot closer to neutral than the more typical -1/-2 type street setups.

I suggest hiring a good instructor to work with you. Somebody who knows what he is doing (as a driver but also -- and more importantly -- as a driving coach) will probably be able to save you a ton of money and time compared to trying to self-diagnose.

S2000GT

not to be confused with torque steer

FO2K

I believe this is referred to as lift throttle oversteer, and what XViper described is throttle steering.

Lift throttle oversteer is what bites people in the butt on on and off ramps. They come into the turn too fast, get nervous and lift off the gas, putting their rear quarter panel into the guard rail.

RED MX5

Mike, sorry it has taken me so long to respond. I've been as sick as a dog for since the 5th.

I had the same issues when the car was stock, and other than the additional power from the SC/AC, the lower gearing (4.30:1) the only mod that*might* increase the cars tendency to oversteer is the KAAZ 1.5 LSD. I'm running straight UK alignment specs.

I go to the Evolution schools periodically, and the instructors there are happy as long as I don't slide the tail. Their "professional" analysis is that I'm getting it right, and I do run times that are very close to the instructors times (and they are all national champions), but ...

... I want more push coming off corners - couldn't get it out of the car stock and can't get it out of the car now, unless I plow into and all the way through the corner, with the front tires sliding all the way round. LOL, that's a nasty way to take a corner. At one time I was running an extra 1/2-degree of negative camber in the back (before the SC and LSD were installed) and I may try that again, but what I'd really like to try is a stiffer (and adjustable) front sway bar.

I've always had to overload the front tires to get understeer, for example, by breaking hard and turning in sharply; If I'm smooth and don't go into the corner too hot, the tail always slides first on corner exit. Same situation as when stock, only it's a lot easier to control now (I think primarily due to the LSD).