what's was the point for honda?
 

i often wonder why honda bothered to make this car. it took a good amount of unique work, research and engineering-it sells for a pretty low price, the public probably won't give it the credit it deserves, most of the cars are falling to the wayside as i see some old MY in used car lots soaking up sun for pathetic prices. some say it was for honda to prove they could. that just doesn't seem to hold enough water. in the end, it just seems that it takes a truly dedicated enthusiast to appreciate this machine. for a company, it's either about that or making money.

if it were up to me, i wouldn't have made this car.

hater. =P

Honda makes Civic's and Accords to make money.
And then they spend it (almost) all on NSX's and S2000's :thumbup:

As far as I know, they made it to prove the world what they were capable of in the beginning of the 21st century. And that was and still is now quite something! Thank God they did make it, otherwise we all would be driving something else, and I am giving no names here :p

[QUOTE=dyhppy,Jul 6 2006, 12:30 AM]i often wonder why honda bothered to make this car.

Honda started off as a racing company, the car makes perfect sense to me.

first of all, im not complaining in the least. i am an owner and LOVE every minute of it. but all those warm and fuzzy sentiments about honda doing it for the love and the pleasure of the enthusiast sounds naive. honda does f1 stuff because of advertising, not to mention that have many sponsors.

this mostly started because i feel like this machine is the result of lots of hard work. that it's underpriced, undervalued and misunderstood by most of the world. and it really gets me when i see the beat up one on the used car lot.

if i were to go through the trouble of building a masterpiece, i wouldn't let any doofus have it to mistreat it, etc. i'd want it to be loved and respected. you can say many things about the nsx, but they are respected, mostly because of the price.

[QUOTE=dyhppy,Jul 6 2006, 03:34 AM]that it's underpriced, undervalued and misunderstood by most of the world.

You DO come up with some of the most random posts. ;)

However you gave me cause to dig out my "Honda S2000" book by Daniel F. Carney so I could find an official quote for you.......

"The development goal of the S2000 was to create a sportscar that embodies Honda's challenging spirit.........We wanted to design a car that gives sheer driving pleasure. The design goals were to create a car with state-of-the-art technology, innovation and sporty handling, and to create a car that brings the pleasure of driving to a wider audience of sportscar enthusiasts."

That just about sums it up, but I will add a few points.

1. The car was developed as a 50th anniversary celebration of Honda.

2. The S500 was Honda's first car, so how fitting that an updated version be re-introduced for the anniversary.

3. Honda wanted to bring their F1 technology to the street (highest hp/liter.....F1 inspired tach.... push-button start.....bare-bones interior for the more serious driver.

4. Classic roadster touches meaning, long nose/short rear deck, rear wheel drive (for Honda??? - yup), 6-speed which I think was Honda's first, balanced weight distribution for optimal handling.

5. There was a growing market with the popularity of the Miata, Z3, Boxster, and SLK...that Honda saw good sales potential.

I could go on. Think I like this car?!?!? :D

-Hockey

Every point I was about to make you just made for me :)

[QUOTE=dyhppy,Jul 6 2006, 03:30 AM]i often wonder why honda bothered to make this car.

Why ask "why"? :rolleyes:

it was fate...Honda made the car so this site could be made and so we could all meet each other and become this community that other car owners become envious of...

i think the S2K is beloved in every country its sold in except for the U.S. . unfortunately in displacement, torque hungry, 0-60, 1/4 mile time country, high revving 50/50 weight dist sports cars are not accepted. why rev the car and wait until the 2nd cam kicks in when you can have a 5.7L V8 and stomp on the gas and go.

for a country that complains about the lack of true manuals out there and how more and more clutchless manumantics are coming out. you would think rowing a high revving car would stop their complaining but every review i've read on the S2K talks about how you have to constantly downshift to pass. then why complain about manumatics when you don't want to shift anyway.

there will always be a small handful that will appreciate a car like the S2K. even at work people wonder why i got rid of the IS when they rode in my S. when i topped it out in 2nd and 3rd and d/c rev matched to 2nd for a hairpin turn the most i got out of two of my co-workers was a yawn and a raised eyebrow. followed by it sounds like the car is going to explode and i said YEAH that's what you want. this is from two guys that drive similar cars a 3 series and G35 and they're both autos. :banghead:

the reason why i got the S its the only car that can live out your F1 fantasies and still be a daily driver. my co-workers said what about a ferrari, sure when you have over $150k to blow on a car and have an on call mechanic at $400 an hour then yeah sure that comes really close. since my last name isn't gates and i don't have a 250 average and get paid millions to hit 1 out 4 balls. the car that comes closest is the Honda S2000. :vtec:

Honda started out as a motorcycle company. I'm very glad that Honda made the S2K. In your eyes, it may seem to be a disappointment but I'm still grinning from ear to ear everytime I start the car. Perhaps Mr. Honda (RIP) is smiling everytime he sees us enjoying his cars. :D

The Honda story is the story of one man, Soichiro Honda, and his unparalleled achievement of bringing motor cycles to the masses. Soichiro Honda was a racer, a businessman, and a manufacturer. But most of all he was a dreamer. He dreamed of a better way of making piston rings, founded a small company, and began production. He dreamed of giving people everywhere an economical form of transportation, and began producing small motorcycles, including one built in 1949 called the D-Type Dream.

He also loved racing too. So his company built bigger and faster machines, two, four, five and six-cylinder race bikes and won the Isle of Man.

Honda Motor Company is by far the world's biggest motorcycle maker. Honda's first motorcycle was born out of necessity in immediate post World War II Japan, where public transportation was desperately overcrowded and gasoline severely restricted.

Looking for a solution to his, and thousands of others', personal transport problems, Honda came across a job lot of 500 war surplus two-stroke motors designed to power electric generators; nobody else wanted them so Honda picked them up cheap.

His aim was to adapt them for attachment to push-bikes and, by October 1946, his small factory in Hamamatsu was making complete, makeshift motor bikes using proprietary cycle frames. Because gasoline was in short supply, Honda adapted his motors to run on turpentine, a fuel that he himself distilled from pine trees and sold throughout Japan. Turpentine (or gas thinned out with turpentine) was not the best thing for powering motorbikes, and required a lot of strenuous pedaling to warm the engine up enough before you could get going.

Honda's first bikes were very successful and supplies of the surplus engines ran out after a few months. Business was good by then, so he decided to manufacture his own motors. Using the surplus motor as a model, Honda designed and built his own 50cc engine.

In November 1947, the 1/2 horsepower A-Type Honda was being manufactured and sold as a complete motorbike. Because the motorbike gave off a lot of smoke and a stench of turpentine it was known as the "Chimney".

Soichiro Honda started Honda Motor Company in 1948, at the age of 41. Soon after he hooked up with financial whiz Takeo Fujisawa and together they built an empire.

1948 saw Honda introduce a 90cc version of the A-Type known as the "B-Type".

By 1949 Honda came out with the "D-Type". Mr. Honda was involved in every step of the two-stroke D-Type Dream's design and manufacture. This was Honda's first motorcycle. This was far from simply slotting a motor into a pushbike frame. Honda called his machine 'The Dream', because his dream of building a complete, motorcycle had come true. Soichiro Honda was an engineer and was always looking to produce better and more sophisticated machines.

It turned out to be the 146cc, OHV, four-stroke E-Type Dream. A powerful machine producing 5 1/2bhp capable of 50mph. It had a steel frame and proper suspension front and rear. By October 1951 the new Dream was in production at the rate of 130 units per day.

In 1952 Honda produced the first "Cub" F-Type, a 1/2 horsepower, 50cc, two-stroke engine that was produced in huge numbers. You could get one to fit to your pushbike or buy the complete red and white Honda "Auto Bai". Less than a year after its Introduction, production was 6500 units per month, at that time it was 70% of Japan's powered two-wheeler market.

In 1953 Honda produced the 90cc, four-stroke single, a motorcycle of even greater sophistication. This was known as the Benly, in Japanese this means "convenience". The J-Type Benly had a three-speed gearbox, produced 3.8bhp, a pressed steel Frame, rear suspension with the engine and swinging arm on a sprung pivot, and telescopic front suspension. Before long they were selling at a rate of 1000 units a month.

In 1954 a 200cc scooter, the Juno, was introduced to capture some of the sales from the Vespa scooter copies that were being built in Japan. Honda produced different versions of the Dream and Benly motorcycles over the next few years incorporating different size engines (up to 350cc) and other refinements.

In September 1957 Honda introduced their first twin-cylinder motorcycle, the sophisticated 250cc OHC four-stroke C70 Dream. It was the forerunner of Honda's high-performance 125 and 250cc twins.

In early 1958 Honda fitted an electric starter to the 250cc Dream and named it the C71 and, in 1959, the latest Benly an incredibly sophisticated 125cc OHC four-stroke twin, capable of 70mph was introduced as the C92.

In July 1958 Honda introduced in Japan what became the world's most successful motor cycle, the C100 Super Cub.

The Super Cub was developed over three years to be a cheap and practical motorcycle that literally anyone could use. It used a 50cc four-stroke OHV motor and centrifugal clutch with three-speed transmission. It was so easy to operate that even new riders could ride it as easily as a pushbike. Its innovative frame without a crossbar made it popular with the ladies and set a new trend in commuter motorcycling. The word "scooterette" was coined to describe this step-through style motorbike which sold in 50, 70 and 90cc versions.

In 1959 it was the first Honda motorcycle sold in the U.S., eventually becoming the world's best-selling vehicle (30 million to date). As proof the original concept and design was perfect is the fact that today's C50, C70 and C90s have only detail changes to set them apart from the machines of 25 years ago.

That same year, 1959, Honda introduced the 250cc C72 Dream in Amsterdam. This was the first Japanese bike to be officially shown in Europe. It surprised the crowd with its unusual pressed steel frame, swing arm and front leading link forks, sophisticated OHC all aluminum engine, electric starter and indicators.

In the UK learners had just been restricted to motorcycles of this size and wanted the fastest bikes they could legally ride. The Honda's were the fastest 250s around, and the C72 with its improvements like 12-volt electric's and wet sump lubrication, successor of the C71, was capable of 80mph and could still get 66 miles per gallon.

The CB92 retained the pressed-steel frame and leading link forks while the CB72 received a tubular style frame and telescopic front suspension.

In 1961 two years after Honda started selling Super Cubs, Honda stunned the racing world with "Mike the Bike" Hailwood's twin victories at the Isle of Man. It was the first of an unprecedented string of victories that was only the beginning of Honda's racing tradition.

From the beginning, Mr. Honda dedicated his company to racing, racking up over 100 major motorcycle championships around the world. What was learned from building high-performance racing machines later led to the development of groundbreaking production motorcycles.

The classic CB72 and CB77 helped fuel interest in riding, got America on two wheels, and established Honda as a serious player. The Hawk name has appeared on Honda models CB72, CB77, CB400T, NT650, VTR1000F ever since, the latest being the 1998 VTR1000F.

In 1962 this breakthrough advertising "You meet the nicest people on a Honda" shattered the myth that motorcycles were only for tough guys and rebels. It reached out and made Honda and motorcycling in general, appealing to everyone.

The C77 a 305cc version of the Dream and the CB77, a Super Sports motorcycle producing 28.5bhp were introduced in 1963.

In 1964 the C95 a 154cc version of the Benly and a 161cc version Of the CB160 was also offered.

The Hondells recorded "Little Honda" in 1964. Honda entered the American pop culture as the subject of this hit song.

In 1965 Honda, always eager for a new market, jumped into the big leagues with their first big, fast production motorcycle, the innovative 43bhp CB450 twin. This was a double overhead-camshaft machine with torsion bar valve springs that would do a genuine 104mph, a machine to challenge the 500cc-plus bikes.

Despite its performance, sales of the CB450 worldwide were Poor. A number of engineering changes were made, in 1967 a five-speed gearbox was added.

In 1967 Honda had their first big off-road win in the "first" Baja 1000.

In 1968 Honda stopped production of the CB72 and CB77 and produced a new line of high performance SOHC twins with five-speed gearboxes, called the CB250 and CB350, with the CB350 able to hit 106mph.

At the Tokyo Show of 1968 Honda, after months of tantalizing rumor, unveiled a landmark achievement that would change the motorcycling world forever. A 750cc bike with four cylinders and a disc brake that was so fast and powerful a new word, "superbike", was coined to describe it. The CB750F four was the biggest bike out of Japan, proving that a high-performance motorcycle could also be very reliable.

In April 1969 Honda set the motorcycle world on fire with the introduction of the CB750. Performance was staggering, easily hitting 120mph and at the time it had better acceleration than anything else on the road.

In 1969 the first Honda automobile sold in the U.S., leading Honda to become a preeminent automotive power.

Aw... It was just getting good, wheres the rest?

You raise a valid question, but at least in my case, it helped them increase their marketshare. This is the first Honda car I've ever owned. I've had 2 CBR's, but never a car or truck. I'm a huge Toyota fan, and I hate FWD (have never purchased anything FWD). But now look at who makes what.

So going back to your question, Honda has done exactly what Toyota is not doing. They are making a product for company pride and for us enthusiasts, probably at the expense of sheer profits. And that is why they now have my business. :thumbup:

I :heart: My S2k.

I don't care if they sold a dozen or a million, I'm just glad I got mine :D

:iagree:

I thought Honda started with lawn mowers. ;)

If you're upset with S2000s being undervalued, don't blame Honda, blame society and its ignorance or lack of desire for what a pure car is. I'm just glad Honda has people who believe in sports cars and pushed this one through.

I'm also still glad the S is only sold as a manual car - you know when you see one that the person driving has some sense of ability - but all the sport convertibles are becoming more civilized, including the S, thanks to society pressures.

In the original spirit of the car, its time for an update though - the S is hardly cutting edge anymore.

I also came over from the Toyota crowd. There's nothing like winding this car out to full song, braking hard while cresting over a hill, downshifting, then winding out VTEC while cornering :)

That's what makes us interesting folks. It's obvious that we aren't into GT cruisers, straight line, high torque muscle cars. We're a community that enjoys the pleasure of driving, people who love the scream of a high-revving engine, wind in our hair, and the joy of rowing gears.

Yes, we're a bunch of automotive hedonists who love the pleasure of driving more than sheer, mindless power.

Honda didn't make the S2000 for people like us. We were born for this car ;)

[QUOTE=Hockey,Jul 6 2006, 04:58 AM] You DO come up with some of the most random posts.

same here! owned two toyotas and when it came to a high revving motor toyota had one available in 2000, the 2ZZ. so, for me the first couple of weeks i felt like a traitor but unfortunately toyota doesn't have a high revving rwd sports car. when they come out with the supra replacement in a year based on the IS350 i still would choose the S. unless of course they find a way for the 2GR to rev to 8k then maybe. :LOL:

Amazon lists a few.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/076030906...2080003?ie=UTF8

[QUOTE=dyhppy,Jul 6 2006, 03:34 AM]first of all, im not complaining in the least.

who said im mad at honda. i simply said it didn't make financial sense and i wouldn't have done it, especially for a world that mostly wouldn't appreciate it. lots to say for another one of my stupid threads.

why doesnt S2ki write a book about the S??

We're all too busy driving.

Great post and sums it all up very well.

The S2000 was great for their image, that's why they made it. They wanted to give something to the real enthusiasts and have that eye popping car that people can stare at at the dealership when they're buying an odyssey and make them proud to have the brand. They made it for name recognition, for people to see it and say "wow, that's a honda?"

They made this car not with immediate profit in mind, but for people to be proud that they drive a Honda - whatever the model may be.

they did. click on the link below.

http://www.amazon.ca/exec/obidos/ASIN/0760...3640387-3001137

nope. honda started off making motorcycles for the masses right after ww2. :) All Soichiro did was strap old militarly motors to bicyles and sold them.

Exactly the source I used for my earlier quote. Notice that link says it is currently unavailable. I'll start the bidding at $40. :LOL:

Is that author associated with S2ki?

the S and the NSX are the flagship models for honda. every company has a flagship model and the reason is it helps the sales of the cars in the lower range. because people think. gee honda is a company that makes such nice cars, i'd like a car made by honda but can't afford the flagships or its not suitable to me. so i'll get a accord or a civic.

every good car company has flagship models. the ones who don't are usually the ones that people reckon are "crap" car manufacturers, like daewoo, daihatsu etc.

theres a certain passion behind owning a honda as well.

my dad doesnt really get excited about owning a toyota, prolly because toyota stopped making really exciting cars.

most honda owners i talk to own a honda not because its sensible but because they absolutely love hondas and whenever i change cars i look at the honda models first before checking the nissan or mitsubishi equivalents.

its like mcdonalds. u eat it as a kid and u won't stop eating it.

drove a honda as a kid and now i won't drive anything else

Honda made this car for me, and I am eternally grateful.

What makes you guys think that Honda isn't making money on the car?

:iagree:

No, I don't know why they said S2KI is... :confused:


I mean like, there has got to be a bunch of guys willing to put something like that, and it could be sent out to those who are paying members of this site, with tips and info on TSB's, popular parts, tuning tips, etc. etc.

Oh wait isn't that what those Hyper Rev things are.

****!

That is hilarious. All my friends think I am crazy for getting rid of my IS for the s2k. They just don't understand!!!!! :D

:iagree:

The S2000 creates a "halo" effect for Honda, all the way down to their lawn mowers.

I think you may be confusing flagship w/ a "halo" car (as Mister X wrote). A flagship is the top of the line model, the one that's got all the bells and whistles. For example, the S Class is Mercedes' flagship. The S2000 is not Honda's top of the line model, neither has it got all the bells and whistles (not even tilt steering). Not that I'm advocating tilt steering for the S2000, but a flagship car has got to have all the gizmos.

That said, I agree that the S2000 and the NSX are "halo" cars.

I'm just glad that Honda made this car -- that's all.

Publicly traded companies are more concerned about the bottom line than privately held companies. Honda, I believe, is privately held. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. If that's true, then Honda doesn't have shareholders and a bottom line to answer to every quarter.

While I agree from a business case, it doesn't make sense; it's very possible that a privately held company will eat the cost to deliver a product they're passionate about.

There also is a business case for it in that every car company likes to have a car to draw customers into the dealership. Of course, Honda doesn't really need this, but the S2000 may help in that regard.

[QUOTE=The_Chinadian,Jul 7 2006, 02:18 PM] Publicly traded companies are more concerned about the bottom line than privately held companies.

I'll accept the possibility that Honda as a corporation is not making money on the S2000, or at least has not made back all of its original development costs.

But if so, all I can say is "thank you!" to those nice people who buy Civics, Accords, Preludes, Odysseys, Pilots, CRV's, RL/TL's, RSX/TSX/RDX/MDX's, etc., so that the engineers can indulge their dreams by building the S2000--for us.

Thanks, Honda. :thumbup:

Some quotes from an article in Bloomberg magazine about Honda:

"The idea of putting styling and marketing on an equal footing with engineering hasn't quite gotten through at Honda." John Wormald, Autopolis.

"Honda has a sustainable competitive advantage because its engineers are excited and interested in what they do." Norihito Kanai, Meiji Dresdner Asset Management.

"Honda and Toyota need each other, even as they're grinding competitors into the dust. Without Honda, Toyota would be too conservative, and without Toyota, Honda would be too crazy." James Womack, Lean Enterprise Institute.

Any links?

Unfortunately not ... I dun have a scanner either :(

Excellent. Then I'm buying shares this week!

:thumbup:

Of course, my point is completely off base now ...

I love the fact that the majority of the car-loving United States either a) has no clue what a S2000 is or what its capable of, OR b) hates it if they do know what the car is. Sure its not an expensive exotic with gobs of bling and power, neither is it a affordable big-displacement with insane torque. That is what is great about it. For about $20K on the used market, you can get a car built by Honda that does it all:

1. Reliable, quality Honda workmanship via hand construction.
2. Great MPG for as fun as the car is to drive.
3. A car that will turn heads without costing a fortune...or at least in Kansas.
4. Insane handling capabilities.
5. Decent acceleration in a straight line, great for coming out of an apex.
6. Great engineering and design, despite being very simple...right down to the interior.
7. It can easily out-perform cars that cost $10K more.
8. Limited production. The other day, on my one-way, 25 minute commute, within 5 minutes I saw 3 350Zs....two of the same color. How many S2000s? None. The next day on the same stretch of road, I saw 3 C5 Corvettes with in 5 miles. How many S2000s? None.
9. Best part: the S2000 community, not just S2KI... I have met some of the coolest car guys and gals because of this car.

Thanks to Honda for producing this amazing, well-engineered machine. I feel like a fighter jet among commercial airlines on the freeway..... and even though I am nearly 27 now...I feel as free as I did at 16 when I am top down, screaming through the gears down a twisty two-lane. :thumbup: :heart:

10: FUN to drive.
11: FUN to drive.

I recently leased mine, and I know these are produced in low numbers, but, if they sold more, would Honda have produced more? I'm referring to item #8 in your post above.

i :heart: honda!

Are you talking about this one? :LOL:
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.s2k...1bd993846f.png

As a manufacturing engineer taking a hard look at the S2000 I don't think it strictly aligns with what a "halo" car is.

I define a halo car as a small production run high visibility product that stretches the envelope of performance, looks, material qualities, or luxury. This is something that has specialized components that will either stretch it's manufacturing limits or be farmed out to 3rd part suppliers.

The Ford GT is a prime example of a "halo" car. the car was almost COMPLETELY made by it's suppliers and low production gauranteed that a high profit could not be made. The all aluminum chassis was all done like a job shop on a special welding rig by Lincoln electric and with pre-cut bent aluminum pieces. I know this because I work for lincoln. None were done on an assembly line creating a lot wasted money on material movement. Then all the suspension pieces and lots of the kitting was down by saleen and other suppliers. Ford's primary involvement was of course the design and engine. Ford just for PR sent back the cars to the detroit plant to have the windshields put in by their workers for PR pictures. Ford did not make any money on these products because the overhead in the R&D and tooling could not be made up on volume. tooling is a huge killer with a single body panel die can go into the high 100,000 dollars. Like F1 marketing and managment painted broad strokes on how much it would boost other sales of cars. It's an unproven science that is very difficult to justify.

How can anyone really prove whether renault is going to sell cars to really justify alonso winning the F1 championship? Its a game where it can go a million this way or a million that way.

So lets look at the S2000. It's a nice car and I love it but it's not a crazy manufacturing nightmare. It's quite straighforward. It's a steel-bodied car so all the chassis and body panels are made with the same principles as an accord. the suspension pieces are aluminum but the dies for that are not that much more complicated. You just have to go a little slower. The mechanics of the car are very simple and have very little electronics complared to a Z4 or 3 series. If you try to tear apart a modern BMW there is a friggin servo or wiring for everything known to man. The most expensive part of the car is the engine and the drivetrain. But the block and head are beautiful pieces but no more then 20-30 percent more expensive to build then an accord I4. Every piece can be made within honda using the same machines tooling, methdology, and material movement equipment. The people overhead is not all that different. Do you need that many more engineers to develop an S2000 then an accord? An S2000 may be more high tuned so let's say you have 20% more people on it. With engineers making close to maybe 90,000 average 10-15 more people is a million bucks. A million dollars isn't that much when making a car. So the only other thing to look at is volume.

The s2000 is a low volume car but it is hardly a supercar. With something like 12000 sold in the first year I believe that is has declined to something like 7000 last year (correct me if I'm wrong). If you include world sales (europe and japan) most of the tooling and overhead for the tooling and R&D have probably been covered. I of course have no intimate knowledge of honda's finances but look at the fact. The NSX was a halo car. all aluminum, hand built, maybe 8000 total in the world? Material cost is nothing. A stamped piece of steel off of a BMW cost no different then stamped piece off a kia. It's all about labor, overhead, and tooling. That's why car manufacturers are the first to go to india, china, and the like.

I have no doubt that honda makes money off these cars. Of course nothing close to an accord... but they make money. No doubt they did it to show off their ability to the world... but japanese are not keen to take a loss.