265 hp Honda 1600cc ....
07-07-2001, 11:43 AM
#1
Thread Starter
265 hp Honda 1600cc ....
Is this possible in normally aspirated form? We are considering building a 1600cc Honda engine for road racing and was wondering if 265hp is possible. Toyota's 1600 makes 265 - 275 hp; however, the Toyota is about $15,000 - $25,000 and requires a rebuild after each race weekend. We are looking to have a reliable engine that only requires minimal rebuild if any after each race. I am assuming there are several members that have "built" a Honda engine and I was wanting a little feed back as to the feasibility of this project.
UL what are your thoughts?
Thanks.
UL what are your thoughts?
Thanks.
07-07-2001, 06:46 PM
#3
Registered User
I've personally never seen one that strong, but with the right parts and people, it should be possible.
As a general rule of thumb, 150 hp/liter is relatively straightforward for a well designed normally aspirated engine. That means that you have the ability to rev it, the parts to handle the revs, and the ability to tune it precisely. This would put you at 240 hp from a 1.6. To get the additional 20-30 hp will require some development
Competing with the Toyotas will be difficult, not because the Toyota motor is that good, but because it has been in development for a very, very long time. People have figured out all the tricks. The B16A has been around and raced awhile, but not at quite the levels of Toyota (Atlantic, etc.).
Here are some things you'll need to pay close attention to to get maximum hp. Keep in mind the highest output B-series I have experience with was a 230 hp 1.8 liter. But that was a street driven, pump gas, normal idle, emissions legal unit.
1. Compression - find out what gas you have to run for your series and then set compression accordingly. If you have to run pump gas, you'll probably need to stay in the 12:1 range. If you can run 100 octane, 13:1 or more is readily available. 110+, you can run 14:1 or higher. These are just rough numbers, only development will really tell you what works and what doesn't.
2. Cylinder head - you'll need a very carefully ported head that is capable of flowing enough air. There are limits on how much the B-series head can flow, but I know that those limits are in excess of 300 hp NA, so you shouldn't have a problem.
3. Individual throttle bodies - you can make great hp with even factory (modified) intake manifolds, but ITBs are the best way to go in terms of ultimate power. Tuning requirements will almost always dictate aftermarket engine control to take maximum advantage of these.
4. Cams - big, off-the-shelf race cams from Jun and Toda (Stage III, Spec C) will make pretty good power, but the level of development you're talking about may dictate custom cams, but you could start with something from one of the above manufacturers (I've had great experience with Toda).
5. Oiling - I highly recommend going to a dry sump system. This will pick up hp and ensure good oiling in the corners.
6. Cooling - you will need a bigger radiator than what the average Honda is running. Size it according to power. Also, if you can, go to an electric water pump. There are block off plates and tensioner kits already available (check Summit Racing). To make the kind of power you want with 1.6 liters you'll almost certainly need to exceed 10,000 rpm peak engine speed. The stock water pump will probably be cavitating at that point.
7. Engine Management - Plan on something like a Motec if you're really serious. You'll need injectors in the 310cc/min range minimum. Preferably something closer to 400 cc/min.
8. Header Design - there is significant power here. John Grudynski at HiTech Exhaust in Orange County, CA is a good guy to talk to. You may choose to go elsewhere eventually, but John has built the headers for a number of race winning Toyota Atlantic cars.
Anyways, those are just starting points, but based upon what I know about the B-series head, it can certainly be done. Only question is how much will it cost and how long will it take?
Oh, BTW, you may want to start with a B16B block. This has a taller deck which allows an even better rod ratio than the 1.74 in the B16A.
UL
As a general rule of thumb, 150 hp/liter is relatively straightforward for a well designed normally aspirated engine. That means that you have the ability to rev it, the parts to handle the revs, and the ability to tune it precisely. This would put you at 240 hp from a 1.6. To get the additional 20-30 hp will require some development
Competing with the Toyotas will be difficult, not because the Toyota motor is that good, but because it has been in development for a very, very long time. People have figured out all the tricks. The B16A has been around and raced awhile, but not at quite the levels of Toyota (Atlantic, etc.).
Here are some things you'll need to pay close attention to to get maximum hp. Keep in mind the highest output B-series I have experience with was a 230 hp 1.8 liter. But that was a street driven, pump gas, normal idle, emissions legal unit.
1. Compression - find out what gas you have to run for your series and then set compression accordingly. If you have to run pump gas, you'll probably need to stay in the 12:1 range. If you can run 100 octane, 13:1 or more is readily available. 110+, you can run 14:1 or higher. These are just rough numbers, only development will really tell you what works and what doesn't.
2. Cylinder head - you'll need a very carefully ported head that is capable of flowing enough air. There are limits on how much the B-series head can flow, but I know that those limits are in excess of 300 hp NA, so you shouldn't have a problem.
3. Individual throttle bodies - you can make great hp with even factory (modified) intake manifolds, but ITBs are the best way to go in terms of ultimate power. Tuning requirements will almost always dictate aftermarket engine control to take maximum advantage of these.
4. Cams - big, off-the-shelf race cams from Jun and Toda (Stage III, Spec C) will make pretty good power, but the level of development you're talking about may dictate custom cams, but you could start with something from one of the above manufacturers (I've had great experience with Toda).
5. Oiling - I highly recommend going to a dry sump system. This will pick up hp and ensure good oiling in the corners.
6. Cooling - you will need a bigger radiator than what the average Honda is running. Size it according to power. Also, if you can, go to an electric water pump. There are block off plates and tensioner kits already available (check Summit Racing). To make the kind of power you want with 1.6 liters you'll almost certainly need to exceed 10,000 rpm peak engine speed. The stock water pump will probably be cavitating at that point.
7. Engine Management - Plan on something like a Motec if you're really serious. You'll need injectors in the 310cc/min range minimum. Preferably something closer to 400 cc/min.
8. Header Design - there is significant power here. John Grudynski at HiTech Exhaust in Orange County, CA is a good guy to talk to. You may choose to go elsewhere eventually, but John has built the headers for a number of race winning Toyota Atlantic cars.
Anyways, those are just starting points, but based upon what I know about the B-series head, it can certainly be done. Only question is how much will it cost and how long will it take?
Oh, BTW, you may want to start with a B16B block. This has a taller deck which allows an even better rod ratio than the 1.74 in the B16A.
UL
07-08-2001, 09:08 PM
#7
Registered User
babylou, I'm no SCCA class expert, but I believe there is a Formula Atlantic class. Whether or not you can run a Honda engine there is unknown to me.
Personally, i'd love to see such a motor in a C-sport racer. GT3 will require creating a sedan/hatchback body with a RWD drivetrain to be truly competitive (if I remember my GT classifications correctly, the RWD Paseo and 200SX are really tough in that class). C-sport leaves some aero possibilities open which could be fun. Also, you could run a transverse mid-engine setup in C-sport, right? That way you could at least start with the existing stock tranny (might have to move to a big bucks X-trac eventually to win nationally).
I don't know if 220 would be competitive, but that's definitely within "easy" reach. Heck, I've seen well put together B16s pumping out over 200 crank hp with mostly factory parts including hte stock cast iron exhaust manifold, on pump gas (just more compression, better head and bigger cams). I've seen some pretty convoluted headers that still make good power (see F1), so its really up to the designer - a guy like John Grudynski or his peers could probably do it, or at least tell you what the no-nos are.
UL
Personally, i'd love to see such a motor in a C-sport racer. GT3 will require creating a sedan/hatchback body with a RWD drivetrain to be truly competitive (if I remember my GT classifications correctly, the RWD Paseo and 200SX are really tough in that class). C-sport leaves some aero possibilities open which could be fun. Also, you could run a transverse mid-engine setup in C-sport, right? That way you could at least start with the existing stock tranny (might have to move to a big bucks X-trac eventually to win nationally).
I don't know if 220 would be competitive, but that's definitely within "easy" reach. Heck, I've seen well put together B16s pumping out over 200 crank hp with mostly factory parts including hte stock cast iron exhaust manifold, on pump gas (just more compression, better head and bigger cams). I've seen some pretty convoluted headers that still make good power (see F1), so its really up to the designer - a guy like John Grudynski or his peers could probably do it, or at least tell you what the no-nos are.
UL
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07-08-2001, 10:59 PM
#9
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You should talk to the folks over at TODA Racing. TODA supplies complete engines to F3, F4, and the N1 classes in Japan, so they might have an idea of what kind of engine to use. As far as I know, the only professional race teams that use Spoon engines is Spoon themselves.
07-09-2001, 06:46 AM
#10
Thread Starter
Thanks everyone for their replies. I will defiantly contact TODA to pick their brain and see what is possible, as well as the contacts UL provided. The Atlantic series in the SCCA can utilize the Toyota, Honda or Mazda rotary. We are leaning towards C sport racer due to the openness of the rules and cost. Atlantics tend to be very pricey.
Once I find out some info, I will forward to you guys if you would like.
Once I find out some info, I will forward to you guys if you would like.