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Gearbox oil recommendation?
I have read a lot about gearbox oil for the s2k. I found out that the consensus is that OEM Honda MTF works best.
However, Honda MTF is a mineral oil, and generally synthetics are recommended for all purposes nowadays. In winter time (here -5 to + 7 C) I notice that from a cold start, the gearbox is very stiff and it takes a lot of effort to change gears. It takes quit long for the oil to warm up and for the gearbox to shift smoothly. Maybe 5-15 minutes depending on the exact outside temp. I think this means that a lot of power could be lost thrue the cold gearbox. Can anyone who knows more about gearboxes tell? My mpg drops quit lower in winter. And I wonder if the gearbox could have to do with it? I make mostly short rides (5-30min). Is there a good synthetic multigrade alternative? (So a cold temp number and a warm temp number, like the engine and diff oils have). Thanks! |
Synthetics are great for longevity, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with conventional oils in most automotive applications. Lots of hype about synth, and they are good, but if you follow correct intervals for maintenance the conventional oils are likely just as good.
I would just run Honda MTF like you have been reading. |
mpg drop during winter is mostly because of low engine temp, it runs way richer until temps gets up to normal.
Use a engine block heater if you want to save on gas and also save on engine wear. Not sure how common engine heaters are in your region but up here in Sweden it's almost fitted as standard on all cars that gets winter use. Also make sure you clutch free play is minimal, if the clutch isn't disengaging fully gear changing gets much harder. |
Redline MT-90.:thumbup: |
This discussion is not quite as contentious as the "best engine oil" and "best differential oil" threads but will still produce a myriad of responses. :)
I ran Honda MTF until last year when I tried Royal Purple Syncromax. Still in the gearbox. You'll find a dozen alternates in other threads. Almost everyone, though, claims their gearbox shifts smoother after an oil change seemingly regardless of what they use. Frequent oil changes seem to be the key rather than what goes in there. Takes less than two quarts and if I'm under the car to change the engine oil it's only a few more minutes getting dirty changing the gearbox oil at the same time. Likewise using a full synthetic makes better sense even though it's not necessary. You've already seen the notes in this thread. :) -- Chuck |
Chuck S is pretty much spot on, its about changing the fluid often because it does not hold a lot and the fluid will deteriorate quickly. ive used the following, Honda mtf, amsoil, and gm synchromesh FM (12377916) which is now discontinued and is not the same as the AC DELCO synchromesh FM. after trying all 3 ive always gone back to GM Synchromesh Friction modified. i felt the trans had the best feel when using this fluid but again it doesn't last super long like the rest of them. i bought a ton of it before it was all gone, i used it on my other honda trans' as well. When my stock is depledted i will go back to either OEM honda mtf or try royal purple sychromax which is also highly recommenced by LHT. use whatever you feel makes you happy just change it often thats all and you will be good to go!
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Originally Posted by dedonderosa
(Post 24525712)
Chuck S is pretty much spot on, its about changing the fluid often because it does not hold a lot and the fluid will deteriorate quickly. ive used the following, Honda mtf, amsoil, and gm synchromesh FM (12377916) which is now discontinued and is not the same as the AC DELCO synchromesh FM. after trying all 3 ive always gone back to GM Synchromesh Friction modified. i felt the trans had the best feel when using this fluid but again it doesn't last super long like the rest of them. i bought a ton of it before it was all gone, i used it on my other honda trans' as well. When my stock is depledted i will go back to either OEM honda mtf or try royal purple sychromax which is also highly recommenced by LHT. use whatever you feel makes you happy just change it often thats all and you will be good to go!
And did you notice any difference in the synthetics vs Honda's mineral oil with regard to deterioration and interval time? The main point of a synth is that it is supposed to last longer. |
Originally Posted by flanders
(Post 24525658)
mpg drop during winter is mostly because of low engine temp, it runs way richer until temps gets up to normal.
Use a engine block heater if you want to save on gas and also save on engine wear. Not sure how common engine heaters are in your region but up here in Sweden it's almost fitted as standard on all cars that gets winter use. Also make sure you clutch free play is minimal, if the clutch isn't disengaging fully gear changing gets much harder. Block heater are not common in holland. Actually never heard of here. Clutch disengagement is absolutely fine, my question was only concerning cold weather. Like now in +10-15C there is no problem at all but thanks for mentioning. In gear with the clutch disengaged (pushed to the floor) it revs freely for take off. ill double check next time. |
Originally Posted by Chuck S
(Post 24525684)
This discussion is not quite as contentious as the "best engine oil" and "best differential oil" threads but will still produce a myriad of responses. :)
I ran Honda MTF until last year when I tried Royal Purple Syncromax. Still in the gearbox. You'll find a dozen alternates in other threads. Almost everyone, though, claims their gearbox shifts smoother after an oil change seemingly regardless of what they use. Frequent oil changes seem to be the key rather than what goes in there. Takes less than two quarts and if I'm under the car to change the engine oil it's only a few more minutes getting dirty changing the gearbox oil at the same time. Likewise using a full synthetic makes better sense even though it's not necessary. You've already seen the notes in this thread. :) -- Chuck Though I would still like to know if you felt a difference between the Oem and Royal Purple? Thats a synth right? I assume you tried it just because of curiosity? Well im very curious what you think now after a year of use?! Especially cold weather. Thanks! |
Originally Posted by Emil St-Hilaire
(Post 24525671)
Redline MT-90.:thumbup: |
I was pleasantly surprised at the cold temp operation of the Amsoil MTF, it worked flawlessly, and I never had to baby it from first start, just drove away on cold start and it worked perfectly. For some odd reason it worked better than the Honda MTF2 despite the Honda fluid being thinner. It must have something to do with the synthetic base of the Amsoil. Just my experience.
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Originally Posted by zeroptzero
(Post 24526023)
I was pleasantly surprised at the cold temp operation of the Amsoil MTF, it worked flawlessly, and I never had to baby it from first start, just drove away on cold start and it worked perfectly. For some odd reason it worked better than the Honda MTF2 despite the Honda fluid being thinner. It must have something to do with the synthetic base of the Amsoil. Just my experience.
is the full name: Amsoil Manual Synchromesh Transmission Fluid MTF? |
Originally Posted by simons
(Post 24526035)
okay cool. Sounds like a good alternative to me. And no downsides at all?
is the full name: Amsoil Manual Synchromesh Transmission Fluid MTF? |
i've run Amsoil MTF too, love it. never had any trouble. i change it every two years, which is probably over kill for how few miles i put on mine lately. but it's great.
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FWIW, maybe your drop in fuel economy has nothing to do with the MTF you use. Up here we have summer blend gas and winter blend gas; the latter is noticeably worse for fuel economy.
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Originally Posted by alSpeed2k
(Post 24526087)
FWIW, maybe your drop in fuel economy has nothing to do with the MTF you use. Up here we have summer blend gas and winter blend gas; the latter is noticeably worse for fuel economy.
Any idea what they change to it? How much worse does it get over there with winter blend? |
1. From the USA AAA:
What is the Difference between Summer- and Winter-Blend Gasoline? Every spring gas prices seem to skyrocket to the highest prices of the year. Why does this happen? In explanation, we hear the experts say that many of the refineries are “down for maintenance while transitioning from winter-blend to summer-blend gasoline,” but what does this mean? The difference between summer- and winter-blend gasoline involves the Reid Vapor Pressure (RVP) of the fuel. RVP is a measure of how easily the fuel evaporates at a given temperature. The more volatile a gasoline (higher RVP), the easier it evaporates. Winter-blend fuel has a higher RVP because the fuel must be able to evaporate at low temperatures for the engine to operate properly, especially when the engine is cold. If the RVP is too low on a frigid day, the vehicle will be hard to start and once started, will run rough. Summer-blend gasoline has a lower RVP to prevent excessive evaporation when outside temperatures rise. Reducing the volatility of summer gas decreases emissions that can contribute to unhealthy ozone and smog levels. A lower RVP also helps prevent drivability problems such as vapor lock on hot days, especially in older vehicles. The US Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) says conventional summer-blend gasoline contains 1.7 percent more energy than winter-blend gas, which is one reason why gas mileage is slightly better in the summer. However, the summer-blend is also more expensive to produce, and that cost is passed on to the motorist. The switch between the two fuels happens twice a year, once in the fall (to winter-blend) and again in the spring (to summer-blend). The changeover requires significant work at refineries, so oil companies schedule their maintenance for those times when they will already be “down” for the blend switches. As a consumer, the main thing to understand is that there are real reasons for the switch from winter- to summer-blend fuel, even if it results in some pain at the pump. 3. Normal differential service: "Every 30,000miles (48,000 km) or every 2 years, whichever comes first." Severe service is half that interval. The S2000 is the only car I've owned in the past few decades I can recall needing a differential oil change. #1 was found in a 3 second Google search (faster than the roof comes down in the S2000) and #2 and #3 are in your owner's manual. . -- Chuck |
I also did lots of research. And was going to buy the mt90 or the GM syncromesh
I ended up getting the Honda MTF, I read by Billman that those thicker oils might not get into the tiny crevices of the tranny, I have used my MTF for a bunch of track days and mountain runs without issues, I just have to wait for it to warm up before banging gears. And I change it every 15k km so it stays fresh |
Chuck's post is instructive. Brings us down to reality. Speaking for myself, I suspect I do a lot of unnecessary work/maintenance on my S just because I enjoy working on it.
I have Amsoil in my gear box now and I like it. But, it could be that none of this stuff about this oil and that oil amounts to a hill of beans. We change old oil for new oil and it seems better, so we assume the new oil is better than the old oil, when in fact its probably all perfectly good. |
You could run almost any 75w-80 GL4 or even 75 W GL4 in the transmission. Hondas MTF is 75w-80 if i remember correctly.
Compare the cold viscosity on the datasheets available from the oil manufacturers to select the oil with the thinnest cold viscosity, this will give you much more smoth shifting from start on. If you like shifts like silk, no matter wich oil you use, give this a try: https://shop.liqui-moly.de/additive/...l-additiv.html |
I put in Amsoil when I bought the car a few months ago
First week or so was amazing, everything was so smooth and effortless, but that quickly reverted back to being notchy unless I get enough heat in the trans by driving it fairly aggressively lol. I'm in Canada. Going to try MTF2 or Redline MTL in the spring and see how that goes. |
Be careful the
-- Chuck |
Well, I do use a lot of Amsoil. I'll plead guilty to that. Fanboy? Nope.
My experience so far is that none of these fluids we are talking about has any long term impact on the inherent notchy character of our gear boxes when they are not fully warmed up. In my opinion the issue is dealt with by developing a shifting technique that works with the car when it is still cool. I'll keep searching for the holy grail. But, I don't expect to find it. I do wish I understood better what is actually going on in the gear box that causes that "catch" or "notchy" feeling many of us experience. Is there any real reason to expect that one fluid over another could actually eliminate it? I doubt it. |
Originally Posted by jiepo
(Post 24526200)
I put in Amsoil when I bought the car a few months ago
First week or so was amazing, everything was so smooth and effortless, but that quickly reverted back to being notchy unless I get enough heat in the trans by driving it fairly aggressively lol. I'm in Canada. Going to try MTF2 or Redline MTL in the spring and see how that goes. |
I have to correct my previous posting because of new insights.
Our gearbox was manufatured by Mazda, used into he RX8 Wankel and the MX5 (Miata). Mazda recommends only 75w-90 for this gearbox. The Honda MTF is thinner, it´s a 75w-80 grade (Search the internet...) I think it is safe to say you could use any GL4 or the new gl4/5 in 75w-80/85/90 grade in this gearbox. I think its worth to have a look at the datasheet regarding the actuall viscosity of the oils you want to use. There are somentimes huge differences between oils, even if they all say "75w-90" on the bottle. Here is a little list for 40°C/104°F and 100°C/212°F viscosity for ROWE, MOTUL and MOBIL1 GL4/5 gearbox oils i have made for myself out of curiosity. The differences surprised me: Rowe Topgear 75w-80 - 37,8 - 7,50 Rowe Topgear 75w-90- 78,5-15,50 Motylgear 75w-90- 114-17,10 Motylgear 75w-85-82,6-12,60 Motylgear 75w-80-58,8-10,10 Mobil1 SHC 75w-90-102-15,10 My bet is, that the Motul 75w-90 is the worst at startup when cold, and that some -80 oils lacks a little bit of hot viscosity (Read: Protection) for my personal taste. Therefore, I will give the Rowe 75w-90 a try. And, as stated above, adding a little bit of a dedicated additives generally works great and improves shifting feel. And dont forget, regreasing the shifter may help to. . |
Experience with hundreds of S2000s is more useful than just one.
Go to post No. 14 here. <--- that's a link. And read why. Spoiler: Personally, I have had fantastic results with Honda MTF, in my car and hundreds of others. (Billman250) |
That number is now in the thousands. Anyone using anything other than Honda MTF to improve shift feel are only masking an underlying problem. It can go 30k miles in a street car, and perform as good as the day it was put in. Track use can surely cut that number more than half. Im not saying other fluids are worse, and sure there may even be something better. Clutch fluid, clutch adjustment, input spline rust, and driver error are the number one causes of notchy shifting. Number of shifters re-greased to this day is still zero. Yes it will smooth things, but it is only making the true underlying problem feel less invasive. Masking the problem will result in smoothing the oil teeth off the synchros, making all gears shift worse. Most important, increased shifting effort when cold is 100% normal. |
Originally Posted by Mr.Matchbox
(Post 24577926)
I have to correct my previous posting because of new insights.
Our gearbox was manufatured by Mazda, used into he RX8 Wankel and the MX5 (Miata). Mazda recommends only 75w-90 for this gearbox. I've spend loads of time reading about / driving s2000 and Miata and never heard this. Also the Miata transmission feels nothing like the s2000. Throws are a tad longer. |
Originally Posted by Mr.Matchbox
(Post 24577926)
I have to correct my previous posting because of new insights.
Our gearbox was manufatured by Mazda, used into he RX8 Wankel and the MX5 (Miata). Mazda recommends only 75w-90 for this gearbox. The Honda MTF is thinner, it´s a 75w-80 grade (Search the internet...) I think it is safe to say you could use any GL4 or the new gl4/5 in 75w-80/85/90 grade in this gearbox. I think its worth to have a look at the datasheet regarding the actuall viscosity of the oils you want to use. There are somentimes huge differences between oils, even if they all say "75w-90" on the bottle. Here is a little list for 40°C/104°F and 100°C/212°F viscosity for ROWE, MOTUL and MOBIL1 GL4/5 gearbox oils i have made for myself out of curiosity. The differences surprised me: Rowe Topgear 75w-80 - 37,8 - 7,50 Rowe Topgear 75w-90- 78,5-15,50 Motylgear 75w-90- 114-17,10 Motylgear 75w-85-82,6-12,60 Motylgear 75w-80-58,8-10,10 Mobil1 SHC 75w-90-102-15,10 My bet is, that the Motul 75w-90 is the worst at startup when cold, and that some -80 oils lacks a little bit of hot viscosity (Read: Protection) for my personal taste. Therefore, I will give the Rowe 75w-90 a try. And, as stated above, adding a little bit of a dedicated additives generally works great and improves shifting feel. And dont forget, regreasing the shifter may help to. . There's a YouTube vid with the head of spoon talking about different oils in the s2000, and he says it's more important to change the trans fluid every time you change the oil than what kind of fluid you pick. |
Originally Posted by lookstoomuch
(Post 24577990)
Well this is news to me. Source?
I've spend loads of time reading about / driving s2000 and Miata and never heard this. Also the Miata transmission feels nothing like the s2000. Throws are a tad longer. https://www.s2ki.com/forums/s2000-ta...n-az6-1056948/ |
Originally Posted by Mr.Matchbox
(Post 24526141)
If you like shifts like silk, no matter wich oil you use, give this a try: https://shop.liqui-moly.de/additive/...l-additiv.html
|
HAH!
Gentlemen, i was completly wrong! Thanks for correcting and enlighting me! Wonderfull Forum! :tipwink: But one little thing: I tested the orignal Honda MTF vs. the Ravenol MTF II, i found that the Ravenol works much better. Maybe interesting for European S2000 owners. |
Originally Posted by simons
(Post 24578050)
Are you using this stuff yourself? 1 or 2 tubes in the gearbox? You use it in the diff as well? What exactly is your experience with this and its effects? And which base oil did you use in the gearbox while you added this? Does it change anything to cold shifting?
I bouhgt my S2000 and the transmission was notchy beyond belief. Like a farm vehicle. The 3. gear especially somtimes gives a "blowback" when putting the gear in like firing a 9mm pistol. ASAP i changed the gearoil to the Ravenol MTF II, that i found much better to the original Honda MTF in my former car, a Honda del Sol. As expected, this makes things much better, but it was still a little bit notchy. I go on and added one tube of the Liquy Moly gear additive and this was the finall step so to say, now the shifts are perfectly smooth. If you think about it, It is crazy to add some MoS² stuff to a gerbaox that relies on friction at the synchro rings for proper function, but it really works. The "ceratec" additive from Liquy moly should also work, but it´s much more expensiv. |
@ ragtophardtop: Thanks. I know that redline makes extremly high quality oils, but they are the most expensive oils you can buy here in germany.
Roughly 30.5 US $ / Quart. Schaltgetriebeöle Auto - RED LINE Synthetic Öle und Additive I am not cheap on oil, but....... but.... maybe i give it a try one day. ;) I often use the car for very spirited drives cross country and sometimens, not often, beat it over the Autobahn. The S2000 is not build for this, but it´s fun sometimes. |
I add a Metallube for gearboxes with the OEM oil, best thing ever since after it I never listen to clack, clack noises .
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Originally Posted by Billman250
(Post 24577979)
That number is now in the thousands. Anyone using anything other than Honda MTF to improve shift feel are only masking an underlying problem. It can go 30k miles in a street car, and perform as good as the day it was put in. Track use can surely cut that number more than half. Im not saying other fluids are worse, and sure there may even be something better. https://www.redlineoil.com/mtl-75w80-gl-4-gear-oil |
the Amsoil MTF lasts the longest by far.
regarding mazda, mazda manufactures the diff if i'm not mistakened, not the tranny. |
Originally Posted by jyeung528
(Post 24580926)
the Amsoil MTF lasts the longest by far.
regarding mazda, mazda manufactures the diff if i'm not mistakened, not the tranny. |
Originally Posted by simons
(Post 24581013)
Did you personally try both Honda mtf and Amsoil mtf? How did you notice or decided the Amsoil lasted longer? And how many kms or miles are we talking about? =)
new fluid feels smooth. over time, the shifting feels more notchy and less smooth. honda mtf could go almost a year before this feeling. redline, gm, etc even shorter. amsoil goes for multiple years and still feels smooth. i drove about 15,000 miles per year when trying these various fluids. |
My experience is that the Amsoil makes for a more notchy feeling at cold startup than the Honda MTF, but ends up super silky smooth once warmed (which doesn't take long).
EDIT: This is on Amsoil MTF that's <1 year old. |
I wonder what everyone means when they say "notchy". I have a problem that's surfaced recently, which is shifting into 2nd I feel it almost grind. It got into gear every time, but it's as though I can feel a few teeth go past before it goes in. Is that what everyone means when saying "notchy?"
I replaced the clutch MC as it was leaking, adjusted the free play, and i just brought it out of storage and it happens still. Honda MTF changed last year and the year before. Clutch feels strong, no slipping. From what billman says, could it be clutch or rusty splines or...? |
Originally Posted by sleepR
(Post 24591706)
I wonder what everyone means when they say "notchy". I have a problem that's surfaced recently, which is shifting into 2nd I feel it almost grind. It got into gear every time, but it's as though I can feel a few teeth go past before it goes in. Is that what everyone means when saying "notchy?"
I replaced the clutch MC as it was leaking, adjusted the free play, and i just brought it out of storage and it happens still. Honda MTF changed last year and the year before. Clutch feels strong, no slipping. From what billman says, could it be clutch or rusty splines or...? |
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.s2k...c900e59d5f.jpg
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.s2k...3a4f8539c8.jpg i just have re-greased the shifter. it makes the gearbox feel more precise, smooth and far less notchy. especially the 3. gear grind was reduced by 90% afterwards. i think the problem of the notchy feeling is caused by two things: shifter with old, worn grease and gear oil. |
Originally Posted by sleepR
(Post 24591706)
I wonder what everyone means when they say "notchy". I have a problem that's surfaced recently, which is shifting into 2nd I feel it almost grind. It got into gear every time, but it's as though I can feel a few teeth go past before it goes in. Is that what everyone means when saying "notchy?"
I replaced the clutch MC as it was leaking, adjusted the free play, and i just brought it out of storage and it happens still. Honda MTF changed last year and the year before. Clutch feels strong, no slipping. From what billman says, could it be clutch or rusty splines or...? |
Originally Posted by zeroptzero
(Post 24591708)
Not likely the clutch or rusted splines. I know the feeling you describe. I think it tends to happen more in cooler temps and when the car is first driven cold, and it tends to go away when the tranny is fully warmed up in my experience. I think you have done some of the important steps thus far, make sure the clutch line has been properly bled. I would highly recommend Amsoil MTF, it works better in cooler temps and when the car is still cool. When I ran Amsoil it would shift smoothly in freezing winter temps, the synthetic base seems to help with that IMO. That 1st to 2nd crunch is quite common but you can make it better. I also like the shifter lube maintenance procedure to keep the feel smoother, I know Billman states that it does not affect actual shifting, but it does make the shifter feel better IMO which is always good.
On a cold startup I can barely get the gear back into 1st (downshift) unless the car has come to an almost full stop. When warm no problems. Upshifting is never a problem when driving below vtec. When revved to redline ap1 (warm car) and upshifitng to 2nd or 3rd (dont remember which one) I have gotten an occasional grind and car didnt wanna engage it seemed. It felt like a misshift. If I remember well it seemed as if I shifted "too quick". Im fairly certain the clutch was pressed fully before changing the gear but it could have been that I moved the stick quicker than my clutch foot? Although I think the fault was at the cars side |
I guess I can do amsoil. I already have the shifter rebuild parts. But like billman said, it's just masking the problem. I don't want the clutch free play too tight. Not sure what else to do besides let the trans warm up and hesitate when shifting and shift at high rpm to start.
Edit: the almost crunch is only during upshift to 2nd, and shortly after startup. It goes away after driving around for a bit. |
Try shifting at 5k rpm and up and see if it goes away.
|
Originally Posted by sleepR
(Post 24591987)
I guess I can do amsoil. I already have the shifter rebuild parts. But like billman said, it's just masking the problem. I don't want the clutch free play too tight. Not sure what else to do besides let the trans warm up and hesitate when shifting and shift at high rpm to start.
Edit: the almost crunch is only during upshift to 2nd, and shortly after startup. It goes away after driving around for a bit. Its either within the recommended spec, or you shouldn't be surprised by issues that arise. |
Originally Posted by sleepR
(Post 24591987)
I guess I can do amsoil. I already have the shifter rebuild parts. But like billman said, it's just masking the problem. I don't want the clutch free play too tight. Not sure what else to do besides let the trans warm up and hesitate when shifting and shift at high rpm to start.
Edit: the almost crunch is only during upshift to 2nd, and shortly after startup. It goes away after driving around for a bit. |
Originally Posted by simons
(Post 24591759)
Is the crunch reffered to with upshifting or downshifting into 1/2?
On a cold startup I can barely get the gear back into 1st (downshift) unless the car has come to an almost full stop. When warm no problems. Upshifting is never a problem when driving below vtec. When revved to redline ap1 (warm car) and upshifitng to 2nd or 3rd (dont remember which one) I have gotten an occasional grind and car didnt wanna engage it seemed. It felt like a misshift. If I remember well it seemed as if I shifted "too quick". Im fairly certain the clutch was pressed fully before changing the gear but it could have been that I moved the stick quicker than my clutch foot? Although I think the fault was at the cars side To get into 1st gear on a downshift try to learn the double clutch downshift procedure, once you get it right you will be able to downshift into 1st much easier. On the S2000 you really need to stab the gas pedal heavily on rev-matched and double-clutch downshifts to get the revs to climb quickly. |
Yeah I shift at higher RPMs, pause before the next upshift, until it warms up. It was just more forgiving before. As it all started happening more than a year after I got it, I'm wondering what's changed.
For the MC rod free play, I meant not tightening that rod too much, as I know it's supposed to have a little free play within the cylinder. So yes, in spec. |
Had another grind on second gear at high RPM's the other day. What's the general consensus on the best trans oil?
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Originally Posted by arsenal
(Post 24593551)
Had another grind on second gear at high RPM's the other day. What's the general consensus on the best trans oil?
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I not one to believe that these different oils make a heck of a lot of difference. But, having said that, I can't lie that I have been impressed with the shifting I am getting in my ap1 with Amsoil in the gear box. I used Honda before this. Seems better now. Who knows.
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What weight Amsoil?
Need the guy on Engineering Explained to perform an experiment |
S2000 owners manual (got one of those?) :)
If Honda MTF is not available, you may use an SAE 10W-30 or 10W-40 viscosity motor oil with the API Certification seal that says ‘‘FOR GASOLINE ENGINES’’ as a temporary replacement. However, motor oil does not contain the proper additives, and continued use can cause stiffer shifting. Replace as soon as it is convenient But so is Royal Purple SyncroMax. Want testing? (Don't ask Jason, he put a Ballace TCT in his car apparently without any research.) -- Chuck |
Originally Posted by Chuck S
(Post 24593728)
S2000 owners manual (got one of those?) :) Amsoil MTF is 5W-30 which is fine.
But so is Royal Purple SyncroMax. Want testing? (Don't ask Jason, he put a Ballace TCT in his car apparently without any research.) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mymxN5U2SF4 -- Chuck Jason has some very informative videos which are not impacted by what timing chain tensioner he uses. Stick to the exhaust threads. |
[QUOTE=arsenal;24593696]What weight Amsoil?
/QUOTE] 5W 30 https://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-produ...?code=MTFQT-EA |
Never said to ignore the manual which specifies Honda MTF and permits 10W-30 and 10W-40 motor oil as a temporary remedy ('cuz it's missing the additives needed) if you can't find Honda MTF for some reason. Honda MTF is a light gear oil of 75w-80 viscosity, equivalent to a 10w-30 engine oil (why gear oil and engine have different "numbers" is a mystery to me) with additives of some sort to increase some gear adhesion or something..
Amsol MTF and others all have the additives and modifiers missing from ordinary motor oil. There are probably a couple dozen MTFs that will work "best" according to results here on the forum where this discussion has been going on for 19 years. :) Getting Engineering Explained (Jason) to "test" gear box oils sounds like a futile idea and LHT claims to have already done this. LHT, though, isn't a 100% source either as he only mentions getting the S2000 filter on tight as he pantomimes tightening by hand. :( The TCT reference for Engineering Explained indicates to me (as noted) that he just grabbed the Ballade model without any research at all. Rather unlike him. Perhaps Balade gifted this to him? Bottom line is consider several expert opinions. And when in doubt RTFM. Automotive lubricants have known specs and Honda just has what they call MTF put in their bottles. I've no clue what oil it really is. -- Chuck |
Originally Posted by rpg51
(Post 24593601)
I not one to believe that these different oils make a heck of a lot of difference. But, having said that, I can't lie that I have been impressed with the shifting I am getting in my ap1 with Amsoil in the gear box. I used Honda before this. Seems better now. Who knows.
When the S2000 was developed Honda MTF1 was the recommended fluid which is thicker than Honda MTF2, and more in line with Amsoil MTF viscosity. As far as a test mentioned above, the test is easy, dump the old fluid and put in Amsoil MTF, it either works or it doesn't, you will know right away if it is better or not. If you like it keep it in the sump, if you don't dump it and put the Honda MTF2 back in there. Simple and inexpensive. IMO. |
Just an update. Today I had time to take my car for a longer drive. After driving around for a good 30min+ the clunk/almost grind is completely gone. Shifting was butter smooth when shifting at redline. I guess it just takes that long to warm up! I wonder if it wasn't so notchy before because the clutch and trans fluid were so old maybe?
Hearing what y'all are saying makes sense. Billman says OE is fine and cautions about using other fluids as a way to fix problems. LHT is the only 'celebrity' proponent of Royal Purple but he obviously has experience. I've read tons of anecdotal arguments for Amsoil but the Amsoil fanbase is large anyway... Albeit for good reason. I read Motul and Redline less. I use Amsoil in my diff because PuddyMod said to. Next summer (or sooner, it's just a pain gettin my car elevated and level in the garage) I'll try Amsoil and probably join you guys singing its praise. |
Hot temp in the tranny fluid often helps to improve shifting compared to cold operation, so it is normal to get better shifting after a bit of driving. Tranny fluid shears as it gets older due to the meshing action of the gears, so the older tranny fluid would have been thinner in viscosity than new Honda MTF that replaced it. Old clutch fluid can make shifting worse compared to new clutch fluid and a clean reservoir, so any change you have noticed is due to the fluid and operating temps of the tranny.
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Originally Posted by sleepR
(Post 24593954)
Just an update. Today I had time to take my car for a longer drive. After driving around for a good 30min+ the clunk/almost grind is completely gone. Shifting was butter smooth when shifting at redline. I guess it just takes that long to warm up! I wonder if it wasn't so notchy before because the clutch and trans fluid were so old maybe?
Hearing what y'all are saying makes sense. Billman says OE is fine and cautions about using other fluids as a way to fix problems. LHT is the only 'celebrity' proponent of Royal Purple but he obviously has experience. I've read tons of anecdotal arguments for Amsoil but the Amsoil fanbase is large anyway... Albeit for good reason. I read Motul and Redline less. I use Amsoil in my diff because PuddyMod said to. Next summer (or sooner, it's just a pain gettin my car elevated and level in the garage) I'll try Amsoil and probably join you guys singing its praise. so i'll just say this, 215,000 miles on my s2000. most of it using amsoil mtf. i tried all the different oils in my transmission. same transmission in the car still. try the amsoil manual transmission fluid, 5w30. there is a difference in longevity. when all the different brand transmission oils are new, they all work well. the noticeable difference is the longevity of the amsoil. to me, that says something about how well it works. |
For grins I looked up the maintenance schedule for the gearbox. Had to use the 2005 owners manual 'cuz there's no schedule in my 2006 manual, it's all in the Maintenance Minder.
Replace manual transmission fluid. Every 120,000miles (192,000 km) or every 6 years, whichever comes first. Honda expects their MTF to last quite a while! Anyone run theirs that long? (Severe service would be half that.) I have no scientific data indicating my gearbox shifts better or even differently from whatever oil the prior owner had in it in 2014 to the Honda MTF I put in the next spring to the Royal Purple SyncroMax in there now. A lot of this stuff is perception -- we expect the gearbox to be smoother with an oil change. And since I just rolled the odometer over 60,000 I'm sure the oil change has met specs. Just a line below it on the same page: Replace rear differential fluid. Every 30,000miles (48,000 km) or every 2 years, whichever comes first. The differential is the one to be concerned with as to wear. I'll be changing this next month along with the engine oil. Gearbox is a game time decision but since I'm under the car and oil is cheap... :) -- Chuck |
Originally Posted by Chuck S
(Post 24594094)
For grins I looked up the maintenance schedule for the gearbox. Had to use the 2005 owners manual 'cuz there's no schedule in my 2006 manual, it's all in the Maintenance Minder.
Replace manual transmission fluid. Every 120,000miles (192,000 km) or every 6 years, whichever comes first. Honda expects their MTF to last quite a while! Anyone run theirs that long? (Severe service would be half that.) I have no scientific data indicating my gearbox shifts better or even differently from whatever oil the prior owner had in it in 2014 to the Honda MTF I put in the next spring to the Royal Purple SyncroMax in there now. A lot of this stuff is perception -- we expect the gearbox to be smoother with an oil change. And since I just rolled the odometer over 60,000 I'm sure the oil change has met specs. Just a line below it on the same page: Replace rear differential fluid. Every 30,000miles (48,000 km) or every 2 years, whichever comes first. The differential is the one to be concerned with as to wear. I'll be changing this next month along with the engine oil. Gearbox is a game time decision but since I'm under the car and oil is cheap... :) -- Chuck but what I can say, is that it doesn't feel as smooth in a matter of months. so i can only speak of the longevity of the smooth feeling that all manual transmission fluids have when brand spankin new. |
Originally Posted by sleepR
(Post 24593954)
LHT is the only 'celebrity' proponent of Royal Purple but he obviously has experience.
After around 2000km (~1.2k miles) I can confidently say, my transmission hates Royal Purple Synchromax :dry: I've read good things about Castrol Syntrans FE 75W on the German s2k forums, going to give it a try as soon as it arrives. Main reason why I wanted to try something other than OEM was longevity. Honda's MTF seemed to get more and more notchy after 1+ years. |
Lots of good oils to choose from including in-house Honda MTF which I've also had good results with however since its probably 75w80 it doesn't hold up to harsh/constant high temp/track driving as well as a 75w90 would.
Motul Gear 300 full synth 75w90 gets my vote. Smooth shifting even when cold (it definitely gets better as it warms up). I've run this oil on a track day as well. |
the honda mtf and mtf 3 viskosity in cst at 40°c and 100°c are:
mtf: 50,8 - 7,5 mtf3: 32,5 - 7,2 source: google search, oil analysis on bob is the oil guy and so on. you could do you own search. these viskosity values are handy when you search for a alternative for the honda mtf. you could compare the honda mtf values with datasheets from oil manufacturers. and yes, honda mtf is in the 75w-80 range. the mtf 3 is more in the 75w range. |
Originally Posted by Mr.Matchbox
(Post 24594598)
the honda mtf and mtf 3 viskosity in cst at 40°c and 100°c are:
mtf: 50,8 - 7,5 mtf3: 32,5 - 7,2 source: google search, oil analysis on bob is the oil guy and so on. you could do you own search. these viskosity values are handy when you search for a alternative for the honda mtf. you could compare the honda mtf values with datasheets from oil manufacturers. and yes, honda mtf is in the 75w-80 range. the mtf 3 is more in the 75w range. |
Originally Posted by jyeung528
(Post 24594058)
i know what it's like to have your head spin reading about different oil brands.
so i'll just say this, 215,000 miles on my s2000. most of it using amsoil mtf. i tried all the different oils in my transmission. same transmission in the car still. try the amsoil manual transmission fluid, 5w30. there is a difference in longevity. when all the different brand transmission oils are new, they all work well. the noticeable difference is the longevity of the amsoil. to me, that says something about how well it works. |
Originally Posted by Mr.Matchbox
(Post 24594598)
the honda mtf and mtf 3 viskosity in cst at 40°c and 100°c are:
mtf: 50,8 - 7,5 mtf3: 32,5 - 7,2 source: google search, oil analysis on bob is the oil guy and so on. you could do you own search. these viskosity values are handy when you search for a alternative for the honda mtf. you could compare the honda mtf values with datasheets from oil manufacturers. and yes, honda mtf is in the 75w-80 range. the mtf 3 is more in the 75w range. |
Originally Posted by Mr.Matchbox
(Post 24594598)
the honda mtf and mtf 3 viskosity in cst at 40°c and 100°c are:
mtf: 50,8 - 7,5 mtf3: 32,5 - 7,2 source: google search, oil analysis on bob is the oil guy and so on. you could do you own search. these viskosity values are handy when you search for a alternative for the honda mtf. you could compare the honda mtf values with datasheets from oil manufacturers. and yes, honda mtf is in the 75w-80 range. the mtf 3 is more in the 75w range. |
Originally Posted by Chuck S
(Post 24594094)
For grins I looked up the maintenance schedule for the gearbox. Had to use the 2005 owners manual 'cuz there's no schedule in my 2006 manual, it's all in the Maintenance Minder.
Replace manual transmission fluid. Every 120,000miles (192,000 km) or every 6 years, whichever comes first. Honda expects their MTF to last quite a while! Anyone run theirs that long? (Severe service would be half that.) I have no scientific data indicating my gearbox shifts better or even differently from whatever oil the prior owner had in it in 2014 to the Honda MTF I put in the next spring to the Royal Purple SyncroMax in there now. A lot of this stuff is perception -- we expect the gearbox to be smoother with an oil change. And since I just rolled the odometer over 60,000 I'm sure the oil change has met specs. Just a line below it on the same page: Replace rear differential fluid. Every 30,000miles (48,000 km) or every 2 years, whichever comes first. The differential is the one to be concerned with as to wear. I'll be changing this next month along with the engine oil. Gearbox is a game time decision but since I'm under the car and oil is cheap... :) -- Chuck |
@ simons: Technical Information -> Data Bulletin -> Open PDF
https://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-produ...?code=MTFQT-EA The value for the synchromesh is 49.4 - 10.4. Compared with the Honda MTF, it´s the same when cold, but a little bit thicker when hot. Thats generally considerd as better for wear protetction. @ zeroptzero: Thanks, i dont know that you dont have MTF 3 in the USA. But, being a international forum with members from all arund the world, it is maybe helpfull for others. Do you have the values for the Honda MTF 2 ? |
Originally Posted by Mr.Matchbox
(Post 24596751)
@ simons: The value for the synchromesh is 49.4 - 10.4. Compared with the Honda MTF, it´s the same when cold, but a little bit thicker when hot. Thats generally considerd as better for wear protetction.
mtf3: 32,5 - 7,2 So actually, the Honda mtf3 is much thinner when cold than the Amsoil. Amsoil 49,4 @40C vs mtf3 33,5. Makes me wonder why people report smoother shifting when cold compared to Honda mtf. Not sure which version those people of mtf had used? As was posted that the mtf had become thinner when cold then early mtf formula. Now wondering again if I should get the MTF3 or Amsoil!? |
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