Mis-shifted from 3rd to 2nd at WOT; looking for advice
04-22-2015, 05:59 PM
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Mis-shifted from 3rd to 2nd at WOT; looking for advice
Greetings all. I will preface this post by saying this will be a long one. So if you read on, I greatly appreciate it! 
(For some history: I purchased this 2002 S2000 back in August 2014 with about 56k miles. It currently has about 70k miles and has been nothing but reliable and strong up to this point.)
Last Friday evening, I took my S2000 out for a spin as it was a really nice day in Michigan. I ended up on an empty stretch of country road, so I decided to let it rip. First and second gears went as well as could be expected, but third to fourth ended in disaster. I mis-shifted from third to second instead (at wide open throttle at redline no less) and heard the motor scream and cry like never before (I've read that some people say mis-shifting only happens if you manhandle the shifter... which I admittedly do with this car as the shifter feels heavy and notchy compared to my other car, which has a shifter that can be shifted with light finger pressure). I immediately put it into neutral and coasted to a stop. Oddly enough, there was no engine CEL, and I was able to drive it home four miles or so. Aside from a rough idle, everything else seemed normal, so I just parked it and tried to pull any codes while it was idling. I came up with a P1399, but wasn’t worried and called it a night.
Next day, I tried starting it and this time something was obviously wrong. The engine idled high and was very rough. I cleared the codes and tried to pull some more, but the engine then completely died and I wasn't able to start it again. Ruh-roh!!!
I spent the rest of the weekend researching this on S2KI and found some interesting information (and some really smart folks).
So, at the very least, it appears I have cracked valve retainers and bent valves. And at the very worst, I have additional head, cylinder, and piston damage (sounds like a used replacement engine at this point). I removed the spark plugs and the valve cover to see if I could find more clues (I do my own maintenance and simple work on my cars, but I wouldn't call myself an expert by any means.) I peaked in the spark plug holes and saw that at least pistons 1 and 4 appeared to have oil on their tops, while pistons 2 and 3 seemed dry. The spark plugs seemed to correlate as well. When I pulled the head cover to inspect the valve retainers and keepers, this is what I found: (“a” is closer to the front of the car, “b” is closer to the firewall):
Intake:
Cylinder 1: both valve keepers recessed
2: both valve keepers recessed
3: valve “a” keeper recessed, valve “b” okay
4: valve “a” keeper okay, valve “b” recessed
Exhaust:
1: “a” okay, “b” keepers recessed
2: both okay
3: both okay
4: both keepers recessed
I also read about possibly doing a compression test to see how bad each cylinder might be, but am concerned this might cause more damage if a valve has fallen out.(If you're still reading at this point, I thank you kind sir or ma’am.) How should I proceed at this point? Currently, the S2000 is sitting in my garage. I was thinking of just getting it towed to a shop, so they can pull the head and evaluate the damage and then go from there. But I've also read that any head/valve replacement job might be more work and expense than expected (not to mention the possible high cost of removing the engine head just for evaluation sake). I've also thought of just conceding that this motor is done and getting estimates for engine replacement (assuming I can find a good used engine that I can get shipped to the shop).
Any response, suggestions, or criticism is welcomed! Thank you!
(On a side note: Dang, making this mistake was more psychologically/mentally damaging than anything else. Sure, financially, it will cost me; but that can at least be recovered. However, my confidence driving this car might never recover. I thought that I was always too careful to do something such as mis-shifting at WOT. But here I am; I'm that guy. Oh well, it happened and it is what it is at this point.
)
(For some history: I purchased this 2002 S2000 back in August 2014 with about 56k miles. It currently has about 70k miles and has been nothing but reliable and strong up to this point.)
Last Friday evening, I took my S2000 out for a spin as it was a really nice day in Michigan. I ended up on an empty stretch of country road, so I decided to let it rip. First and second gears went as well as could be expected, but third to fourth ended in disaster. I mis-shifted from third to second instead (at wide open throttle at redline no less) and heard the motor scream and cry like never before (I've read that some people say mis-shifting only happens if you manhandle the shifter... which I admittedly do with this car as the shifter feels heavy and notchy compared to my other car, which has a shifter that can be shifted with light finger pressure). I immediately put it into neutral and coasted to a stop. Oddly enough, there was no engine CEL, and I was able to drive it home four miles or so. Aside from a rough idle, everything else seemed normal, so I just parked it and tried to pull any codes while it was idling. I came up with a P1399, but wasn’t worried and called it a night.
Next day, I tried starting it and this time something was obviously wrong. The engine idled high and was very rough. I cleared the codes and tried to pull some more, but the engine then completely died and I wasn't able to start it again. Ruh-roh!!!
I spent the rest of the weekend researching this on S2KI and found some interesting information (and some really smart folks).So, at the very least, it appears I have cracked valve retainers and bent valves. And at the very worst, I have additional head, cylinder, and piston damage (sounds like a used replacement engine at this point). I removed the spark plugs and the valve cover to see if I could find more clues (I do my own maintenance and simple work on my cars, but I wouldn't call myself an expert by any means.) I peaked in the spark plug holes and saw that at least pistons 1 and 4 appeared to have oil on their tops, while pistons 2 and 3 seemed dry. The spark plugs seemed to correlate as well. When I pulled the head cover to inspect the valve retainers and keepers, this is what I found: (“a” is closer to the front of the car, “b” is closer to the firewall):
Intake:
Cylinder 1: both valve keepers recessed
2: both valve keepers recessed
3: valve “a” keeper recessed, valve “b” okay
4: valve “a” keeper okay, valve “b” recessed
Exhaust:
1: “a” okay, “b” keepers recessed
2: both okay
3: both okay
4: both keepers recessed
I also read about possibly doing a compression test to see how bad each cylinder might be, but am concerned this might cause more damage if a valve has fallen out.(If you're still reading at this point, I thank you kind sir or ma’am.) How should I proceed at this point? Currently, the S2000 is sitting in my garage. I was thinking of just getting it towed to a shop, so they can pull the head and evaluate the damage and then go from there. But I've also read that any head/valve replacement job might be more work and expense than expected (not to mention the possible high cost of removing the engine head just for evaluation sake). I've also thought of just conceding that this motor is done and getting estimates for engine replacement (assuming I can find a good used engine that I can get shipped to the shop).
Any response, suggestions, or criticism is welcomed! Thank you!
(On a side note: Dang, making this mistake was more psychologically/mentally damaging than anything else. Sure, financially, it will cost me; but that can at least be recovered. However, my confidence driving this car might never recover. I thought that I was always too careful to do something such as mis-shifting at WOT. But here I am; I'm that guy. Oh well, it happened and it is what it is at this point.
)
04-22-2015, 06:09 PM
#2
No need to do a compression test, it will just tell you that you damaged your motor, which you already know. With any luck you just bent some valves and will be up and running in no time. Looks like you just need to find a good reliable shop to fix you right up!
If your close to Toledo, Ohio I would reccomend Pure Tuning. Also a guy in Detroit has an AP1 that was wrecked with only 8k miles just incase you damaged more than it sounds and you need a new motor. Just message me and I will get you his info.
If your close to Toledo, Ohio I would reccomend Pure Tuning. Also a guy in Detroit has an AP1 that was wrecked with only 8k miles just incase you damaged more than it sounds and you need a new motor. Just message me and I will get you his info.
04-22-2015, 06:25 PM
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No need to do a compression test, it will just tell you that you damaged your motor, which you already know. With any luck you just bent some valves and will be up and running in no time. Looks like you just need to find a good reliable shop to fix you right up!
If your close to Toledo, Ohio I would reccomend Pure Tuning. Also a guy in Detroit has an AP1 that was wrecked with only 8k miles just incase you damaged more than it sounds and you need a new motor. Just message me and I will get you his info.
If your close to Toledo, Ohio I would reccomend Pure Tuning. Also a guy in Detroit has an AP1 that was wrecked with only 8k miles just incase you damaged more than it sounds and you need a new motor. Just message me and I will get you his info.
I'm curious, though; would having bent valves actually keep the engine from running? I thought bent valves would mean misfires and rough idling, but not total engine stalling (well, at least until those valve retainers completely failed.)
Oh, and I might be needing that guy's info if it does turn out to be a worse case scenario. I'm actually about 1.5 hours away from Toledo. I was actually reading about Jergen's, in metro Detroit, and that sounds like a pretty good option. Or maybe I should just stick with a local shop to save some steep flat-bedding bills...
04-22-2015, 06:50 PM
#4
Greetings all. I will preface this post by saying this will be a long one. So if you read on, I greatly appreciate it!
(For some history: I purchased this 2002 S2000 back in August 2014 with about 56k miles. It currently has about 70k miles and has been nothing but reliable and strong up to this point.)
Last Friday evening, I took my S2000 out for a spin as it was a really nice day in Michigan. I ended up on an empty stretch of country road, so I decided to let it rip. First and second gears went as well as could be expected, but third to fourth ended in disaster. I mis-shifted from third to second instead (at wide open throttle at redline no less) and heard the motor scream and cry like never before (I've read that some people say mis-shifting only happens if you manhandle the shifter... which I admittedly do with this car as the shifter feels heavy and notchy compared to my other car, which has a shifter that can be shifted with light finger pressure). I immediately put it into neutral and coasted to a stop. Oddly enough, there was no engine CEL, and I was able to drive it home four miles or so. Aside from a rough idle, everything else seemed normal, so I just parked it and tried to pull any codes while it was idling. I came up with a P1399, but wasn’t worried and called it a night.
Next day, I tried starting it and this time something was obviously wrong. The engine idled high and was very rough. I cleared the codes and tried to pull some more, but the engine then completely died and I wasn't able to start it again. Ruh-roh!!! I spent the rest of the weekend researching this on S2KI and found some interesting information (and some really smart folks).
So, at the very least, it appears I have cracked valve retainers and bent valves. And at the very worst, I have additional head, cylinder, and piston damage (sounds like a used replacement engine at this point). I removed the spark plugs and the valve cover to see if I could find more clues (I do my own maintenance and simple work on my cars, but I wouldn't call myself an expert by any means.) I peaked in the spark plug holes and saw that at least pistons 1 and 4 appeared to have oil on their tops, while pistons 2 and 3 seemed dry. The spark plugs seemed to correlate as well. When I pulled the head cover to inspect the valve retainers and keepers, this is what I found: (“a” is closer to the front of the car, “b” is closer to the firewall):
Intake:
Cylinder 1: both valve keepers recessed
2: both valve keepers recessed
3: valve “a” keeper recessed, valve “b” okay
4: valve “a” keeper okay, valve “b” recessed
Exhaust:
1: “a” okay, “b” keepers recessed
2: both okay
3: both okay
4: both keepers recessed
I also read about possibly doing a compression test to see how bad each cylinder might be, but am concerned this might cause more damage if a valve has fallen out.(If you're still reading at this point, I thank you kind sir or ma’am.) How should I proceed at this point? Currently, the S2000 is sitting in my garage. I was thinking of just getting it towed to a shop, so they can pull the head and evaluate the damage and then go from there. But I've also read that any head/valve replacement job might be more work and expense than expected (not to mention the possible high cost of removing the engine head just for evaluation sake). I've also thought of just conceding that this motor is done and getting estimates for engine replacement (assuming I can find a good used engine that I can get shipped to the shop).
Any response, suggestions, or criticism is welcomed! Thank you!
(On a side note: Dang, making this mistake was more psychologically/mentally damaging than anything else. Sure, financially, it will cost me; but that can at least be recovered. However, my confidence driving this car might never recover. I thought that I was always too careful to do something such as mis-shifting at WOT. But here I am; I'm that guy. Oh well, it happened and it is what it is at this point. )
(For some history: I purchased this 2002 S2000 back in August 2014 with about 56k miles. It currently has about 70k miles and has been nothing but reliable and strong up to this point.)
Last Friday evening, I took my S2000 out for a spin as it was a really nice day in Michigan. I ended up on an empty stretch of country road, so I decided to let it rip. First and second gears went as well as could be expected, but third to fourth ended in disaster. I mis-shifted from third to second instead (at wide open throttle at redline no less) and heard the motor scream and cry like never before (I've read that some people say mis-shifting only happens if you manhandle the shifter... which I admittedly do with this car as the shifter feels heavy and notchy compared to my other car, which has a shifter that can be shifted with light finger pressure). I immediately put it into neutral and coasted to a stop. Oddly enough, there was no engine CEL, and I was able to drive it home four miles or so. Aside from a rough idle, everything else seemed normal, so I just parked it and tried to pull any codes while it was idling. I came up with a P1399, but wasn’t worried and called it a night.
Next day, I tried starting it and this time something was obviously wrong. The engine idled high and was very rough. I cleared the codes and tried to pull some more, but the engine then completely died and I wasn't able to start it again. Ruh-roh!!!
I spent the rest of the weekend researching this on S2KI and found some interesting information (and some really smart folks).So, at the very least, it appears I have cracked valve retainers and bent valves. And at the very worst, I have additional head, cylinder, and piston damage (sounds like a used replacement engine at this point). I removed the spark plugs and the valve cover to see if I could find more clues (I do my own maintenance and simple work on my cars, but I wouldn't call myself an expert by any means.) I peaked in the spark plug holes and saw that at least pistons 1 and 4 appeared to have oil on their tops, while pistons 2 and 3 seemed dry. The spark plugs seemed to correlate as well. When I pulled the head cover to inspect the valve retainers and keepers, this is what I found: (“a” is closer to the front of the car, “b” is closer to the firewall):
Intake:
Cylinder 1: both valve keepers recessed
2: both valve keepers recessed
3: valve “a” keeper recessed, valve “b” okay
4: valve “a” keeper okay, valve “b” recessed
Exhaust:
1: “a” okay, “b” keepers recessed
2: both okay
3: both okay
4: both keepers recessed
I also read about possibly doing a compression test to see how bad each cylinder might be, but am concerned this might cause more damage if a valve has fallen out.(If you're still reading at this point, I thank you kind sir or ma’am.) How should I proceed at this point? Currently, the S2000 is sitting in my garage. I was thinking of just getting it towed to a shop, so they can pull the head and evaluate the damage and then go from there. But I've also read that any head/valve replacement job might be more work and expense than expected (not to mention the possible high cost of removing the engine head just for evaluation sake). I've also thought of just conceding that this motor is done and getting estimates for engine replacement (assuming I can find a good used engine that I can get shipped to the shop).
Any response, suggestions, or criticism is welcomed! Thank you!
(On a side note: Dang, making this mistake was more psychologically/mentally damaging than anything else. Sure, financially, it will cost me; but that can at least be recovered. However, my confidence driving this car might never recover. I thought that I was always too careful to do something such as mis-shifting at WOT. But here I am; I'm that guy. Oh well, it happened and it is what it is at this point.
)....
If you are confident in your findings on the retainers, I'd probably just look for a good used complete head.
04-22-2015, 07:01 PM
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I wouldn't worry about being "that guy". The only people that can really help you here have been "that guy" before and learned from it. People that haven't been "that guy" typically aren't of very much assistance.
....
If you are confident in your findings on the retainers, I'd probably just look for a good used complete head.
....
If you are confident in your findings on the retainers, I'd probably just look for a good used complete head.
I hope all that is needed is a head replacement; there's just something that urks me about a complete engine replacement as opposed to just replacing a few parts here and there. It's like it's not the same whole car anymore. But I'm just getting silly now. Obviously, the goal here is to get the car going again by whichever means possible, and I have to keep that in mind.
04-23-2015, 02:31 AM
#6
IDK if there is a need for a whole new head. The head has to come off either way so why not check to see if there is any valve seat damage, if not just replace the valves and retainers with AP2?
If you damaged the valve seats then yes a whole new head is best.
If you damaged the valve seats then yes a whole new head is best.
04-23-2015, 05:24 AM
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That makes perfect sense. I guess I just need to get it to a shop to have them pull the head and go from there. (I kinda want to do this at home just so I can see for myself how much damage there is, but I don't feel comfortable doing so without messing things up more.)
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04-23-2015, 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by bgoetz' timestamp='1429785100' post='23588252
IDK if there is a need for a whole new head. The head has to come off either way so why not check to see if there is any valve seat damage, if not just replace the valves and retainers with AP2?
If you damaged the valve seats then yes a whole new head is best.
If you damaged the valve seats then yes a whole new head is best.
You're not the only one who had made this mistake haha. I myself did the exact 2nd gear mis shift a month ago but luckily i had updated ap2 seats and retainers so i didn't drop a valve, just bent one. After the incident I took my head off and it was still in great condition so I decided to go with a new valvetrain from Ferrea to prevent any future headaches. It happens, man. The thing to take away from it is now you can build it stronger!
04-23-2015, 03:53 PM
#9
If you do go this route, make sure you check all the valve seats with mineral spirits or gasoline to ensure they seal properly prior to reassembly. Don't eyeball it.
04-23-2015, 03:54 PM
#10
Don't attempt to start the engine anymore. Take the head off the block. The head needs to be inspected. If the cylinder sleeve didn't crack then you will just have to work on the head. Check engine rotation while head is off and inspect the walls. You said there is oil on the Pistons, not a good sign. Search on this website for a low mileage motor and keep the other parts for possible spares
