New Robbins top leak -- trunk full of water!!!
01-24-2018, 07:42 PM
#1
Thread Starter
[Fixed] New Robbins top leak -- trunk full of water!!!
Hey folks,
Not a good day for me. Heavy rain in California, trunk full of water.
I purchased a new Robbins top from TopsOnline and followed the instructions to the dot. Tight fit, but it looks perfect.
The private TopsOnline instructional video (with the yellow S2000) said that you do NOT need to rivet the top to the rain rail and that "Honda did it to save time in factory production." They also warned that riveting the top to the rain rail might lead to wrinkles, so obviously I opted out of the extra rivets and just hung the rain rail and top on the built-in [frame] studs.
The old rivet holes are... empty holes. This has to be the source of my leak, right??!
I'm going to take the rain rail apart from the trunk side per this post (https://www.s2ki.com/forums/s2000-un.../#post22333708).
I plan on filling in the empty rivet holes and tape around the bolt holes to ensure the rain rail is 100% watertight.
While I'm down there, can someone with experience confirm if this is indeed my issue? Or is there something else I should be looking into just in case?
And lastly, if you're confident this *is* the issue, WTF is the TopsOnline video about with this "shortcut." WHY OH WHY!
Thanks!
Not a good day for me. Heavy rain in California, trunk full of water.
I purchased a new Robbins top from TopsOnline and followed the instructions to the dot. Tight fit, but it looks perfect.
The private TopsOnline instructional video (with the yellow S2000) said that you do NOT need to rivet the top to the rain rail and that "Honda did it to save time in factory production." They also warned that riveting the top to the rain rail might lead to wrinkles, so obviously I opted out of the extra rivets and just hung the rain rail and top on the built-in [frame] studs.
The old rivet holes are... empty holes. This has to be the source of my leak, right??!
I'm going to take the rain rail apart from the trunk side per this post (https://www.s2ki.com/forums/s2000-un.../#post22333708).
I plan on filling in the empty rivet holes and tape around the bolt holes to ensure the rain rail is 100% watertight.
While I'm down there, can someone with experience confirm if this is indeed my issue? Or is there something else I should be looking into just in case?
And lastly, if you're confident this *is* the issue, WTF is the TopsOnline video about with this "shortcut." WHY OH WHY!
Thanks!
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4X4XFAR (03-18-2022)
01-24-2018, 08:17 PM
#2
Thread Starter
Also, for kicks, what is part #18 in this picture? Is this the mystery tape that I found on some of my original Honda rivets prior to drilling them out of the rain rail?
No part/number listed:
https://www.hondaautomotiveparts.com...op-cloth-02-06
https://www.hondapartscheap.com/auto...oth-02-06-scat
No part/number listed:
https://www.hondaautomotiveparts.com...op-cloth-02-06
https://www.hondapartscheap.com/auto...oth-02-06-scat
01-26-2018, 03:24 PM
#3
I've done many tops and can't fathom how you can not use rivets? I only do Robbins tops from Bestop and have never heard of the "private" video you refer to. There are several threads here to guide you on a proper installation. Top of Under the Hood blue FAQ on DIY & Maintenance. Look for top replacement. The is one on installing Robbins Glass clothtop to earlier models. There is also a great thread in the North Texas stickies by Clovis; The Godfather of top replacement. There is another Clovis guide in the FAQ. It's a pain to install but I think you may need a do over. I could be wrong but never heard of a rivetless install(?).
utah
utah
01-27-2018, 06:34 AM
#4
Moderator
Be sure the rear edge of the rainrail is tucked under the rear lip of the body. It wont tuck by tightening down the rail retainers.
You need to push it under a few inches at a time with your fingers until tucked completely across.
You need to push it under a few inches at a time with your fingers until tucked completely across.
01-27-2018, 08:54 AM
#5
Thread Starter
Thanks Billman and Utah -- I did indeed tuck the rainrail undernear the rear lip.
Another post said I don't have to remove my interior/seats/rollbar, and I can just access the rainrail from the trunk -- I hope that is true! I will try to test my hypothesis about sealing the [missing] rivet holes with RTV/weatherproof tape. I will also double-check the rainrail lip tuck. And below is some of my research, for the record.
On s2ki, I only found one other reference to this hypothesis:
https://www.s2ki.com/forums/s2000-un.../#post22333708
On Miata.net, however, there are lots of DIY Robbins top threads where they highlight the rivet vs. no rivet issue:
https://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread.php?t=299518
https://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread.php?t=108976
https://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread.php?t=346570
https://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread.php?t=465869
https://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread.php?t=283976
https://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread.php?t=278815
https://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread.php?t=363729
https://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread.php?t=543902
Here is a screenshot from the TopsOnline video that documents their "no rivets required" advice -- note the yellow AP1 and how the top is separate from the rain rail:
I will report back with more photos and hopefully a permanent fix to save the future generation from repeating my headaches. Thanks!
Another post said I don't have to remove my interior/seats/rollbar, and I can just access the rainrail from the trunk -- I hope that is true! I will try to test my hypothesis about sealing the [missing] rivet holes with RTV/weatherproof tape. I will also double-check the rainrail lip tuck. And below is some of my research, for the record.
On s2ki, I only found one other reference to this hypothesis:
https://www.s2ki.com/forums/s2000-un.../#post22333708
On Miata.net, however, there are lots of DIY Robbins top threads where they highlight the rivet vs. no rivet issue:
I would not rivet. And make sure to either tape or seal any holes in the rain rail before installation.
I skipped mine [rivets] and I am usually really anal about doing things "right", a perfectionist I have been called many times! I just put a piece of electrical tape over the holes and some RTV silicone to seal them good and put it together.
Mazda riveted the rain rail on to help with the manufacturing process but it's really not needed. It is a good idea to seal the rivet holes, however. I have done both and find it easier overall to not rivet the rail to the top.
Yup, just drill out the old rivets. You WILL need to plug the rivet holes in the new rain rail before you install it. Riveting the rail to the top is done to make it easier for Mazda to assemble it into the car, it is not necessary.
And as others have said, the rivets are not required and installing the rail... just make sure you plug ALL the holes left by removing the rain rail.
An update. I now have a bone dry rear shelf even if I blast my trunk and rear window with water. I took the suggestions of using shoe goo and tape for the rivet holes
I got leaks from the rail's rivet holes, I must've missed the instruction to seal them. I was not impressed with the suggestion to use tape to seal the holes, so I wound up riveting it afterwards.
I recommend you seal the rivet holes. As long as everything is free and clear; there will be no leaking but if the rail fills due to very heavy rain or clogging with debris, the rivet holes can leak before the rail itself overflows. Though not very likely, it's worth a dab of silicone at each of the holes to insure this doesn't happen. I don't think the stud will leak due to the pressure on the area around it. That pressure will not extend to the rivet holes due to the shape of the metal behind them.
IMHO the rivet holes need to be sealed if the rain rail is not riveted to the top. And regardless of how many tops have been installed not needing sealant on the bolt holes have been installed a little shoe goo or whatever (allowed to dry before bolting down) will go into the bolt holes if I ever have to replace mine again.
https://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread.php?t=543902
Here is a screenshot from the TopsOnline video that documents their "no rivets required" advice -- note the yellow AP1 and how the top is separate from the rain rail:
I will report back with more photos and hopefully a permanent fix to save the future generation from repeating my headaches. Thanks!
01-27-2018, 09:15 AM
#6
Community Organizer
Not to put too fine a point on it, but I don't see how they think it's a good idea not to keep the top absolutely secure with the rain rail. I riveted everything and have had a perfect install with no leaks for years. I would suggest pulling the trunk interior, using a hose to load up the back of the top with water (top up of course), and see where the water is leaking before disassembling anything related to the top.
01-30-2018, 03:22 PM
#7
Thread Starter
Hey folks,
Hopefully this will save some time, money, and headaches for future DIY'ers.
I pulled the rear tray, and poured water once again -- lots of leaks, on both sides of the car, and into the trunk.
I then removed the center and two side [metal] bars as well as the rainrail from the top. I did NOT gut the interior (and therefore did NOT remove the seats, or rollbars). Word of advice? Don't do it this way. This process required me to line the trunk with pillows and lay on my back for hours. This also required pulling/massaging certain trim pieces, hoping not to crack them, and working in super tight spaces with a helper with a flashlight pulling on the trim. Also had to sit/stand on the seats to reach into the back. Do not take this "shortcut" -- instead, do it the right way, and remove all the interior, seats, roll bars, etc. -- for the sake of your back and your sanity! E.g.
Verdict:
I am fairly peeved with TopsOnline -- their video instructions specifically said that riveting the top to the rainrail is optional, but doing so "might introduce wrinkles." They did not make any note of patching/sealing the [old/empty] rivet holes. Perhaps that was common sense and did not need to be explicitly stated. Perhaps not. I will send them a message, but hopefully this will save y'all some time... The Miata guys were right after all!
Conclusion:
-Harry
Hopefully this will save some time, money, and headaches for future DIY'ers.
I pulled the rear tray, and poured water once again -- lots of leaks, on both sides of the car, and into the trunk.
I then removed the center and two side [metal] bars as well as the rainrail from the top. I did NOT gut the interior (and therefore did NOT remove the seats, or rollbars). Word of advice? Don't do it this way. This process required me to line the trunk with pillows and lay on my back for hours. This also required pulling/massaging certain trim pieces, hoping not to crack them, and working in super tight spaces with a helper with a flashlight pulling on the trim. Also had to sit/stand on the seats to reach into the back. Do not take this "shortcut" -- instead, do it the right way, and remove all the interior, seats, roll bars, etc. -- for the sake of your back and your sanity! E.g.
- Installing a new Robbins top? 7/10 difficulty
- Removing the rain rail from the trunk? 9.5/10 difficulty
Verdict:
- Removed the rain rail
- Still did NOT rivet the Robbins top to the rain rail
- Sealed *all* holes in the rail with 3M Extreme Sealing Tape 4411N -- this stuff is water-resistant and tough as nails (
- Note: 441N is thinner and better for this application than the thicker 442N
- Seal everything:
- Seal empty rivet holes (outside both sides)
- Seal the stud holes on the outside of the rail (outside both sides)
- Seal the stud itself on the inside (after placing rain rail onto the stud)
- Tightened all the nuts in the proper sequence (below)
- No leaks, trunk is completely waterproof, even if hose the top down and aggressively overflow/flood the rain rail
I am fairly peeved with TopsOnline -- their video instructions specifically said that riveting the top to the rainrail is optional, but doing so "might introduce wrinkles." They did not make any note of patching/sealing the [old/empty] rivet holes. Perhaps that was common sense and did not need to be explicitly stated. Perhaps not. I will send them a message, but hopefully this will save y'all some time... The Miata guys were right after all!
Conclusion:
- My Robbins Top did NOT require riveting the top to the rain rainrail
- But you MUST seal all the holes -- if you do rivet, I recommend sealing the rivet holes as well (some of them are enlarged/rectangular and have gaps that are not fully sealed by the rivets/washers)
- I am not a lawyer, you are responsible for your own install, be excellent to each other, vaya con dios, etc.
-Harry
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07-02-2019, 12:06 PM
#8
Thanks for the post, I'm in the middle of this process, and my replacement top looks like it had the same issue.
When taping the stud holes, did you slice the tape to let the stud slide through, or you taped over the actual stud? Did you use any silicon anywhere, or just the tape?
When taping the stud holes, did you slice the tape to let the stud slide through, or you taped over the actual stud? Did you use any silicon anywhere, or just the tape?
07-02-2019, 01:21 PM
#9
Thread Starter
Thanks for the post, I'm in the middle of this process, and my replacement top looks like it had the same issue.
When taping the stud holes, did you slice the tape to let the stud slide through, or you taped over the actual stud? Did you use any silicon anywhere, or just the tape?
When taping the stud holes, did you slice the tape to let the stud slide through, or you taped over the actual stud? Did you use any silicon anywhere, or just the tape?
I did not use silicone anywhere (unlike the Miata guys). Obviously if you tape over the stud, when you're placing the rain rail back on the stud, push firmly to push it through your new tape (so yes, the stud slices through). But it'll be a tight fit, which is what we're going for here. Study my pictures closely. Good luck, this one was a PITA!
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msSpeed3 (07-02-2019)
07-03-2019, 06:52 AM
#10
So that went well - tape is on, rain rail is on studs. My issue now is getting the metal rails back on the studs in the interior.
Did you put the 2 side pieces on first then the big middle piece? It's like the pieces are too wide and I can't get them all back in at the same time.
Did you put the 2 side pieces on first then the big middle piece? It's like the pieces are too wide and I can't get them all back in at the same time.