Silver_Bullet_S

Hi, I could really use some help from any engine builders out there or anyone that has experience w/ thicker aftermarket head gaskets & compression ratios. My 06 S2K had a blown head gasket that warped the block & head. I ended up getting royally screwed by 2 lousy machine shops in the bay area when trying to get the head & block fixed.

BACKSTORY:

I took my head to A&M Motors in Los Gatos to get it machined straight & install a full Ferrea valve train. The machinist used a belt sander to resurface the head & it came out like shit & uneven. He didn’t even measure how much material he took off & used worn valve guides so there was way too much free play w/ the valves!

I then took the cyl head to Clarks Auto Repair in Cupertino to get it redone & also had them resurface my block & install a new clutch while they were at it; I was going to put the head back on the motor myself. First, Clark's forgot to install the clutch before they put the block back in the car & they demanded I pay them extra to have them go back & install it even though they're the ones who forgot! Then on the second pass, they forgot install the oil squirters, so I had to pull the oil pan off & install them myself.

Clark's also didn’t measure the head & just machined it until it was flat & they left several knicks & burrs that I’m afraid will cause hot spots/detonation points (pics below). I can’t believe how lousy these 2 shops were & how they’re still in business!!! Stay away from them !!!

WHERE I'M AT NOW:

So now I've got a head that has an unknown amount of material taken off & I don’t know what thickness head gasket to use, if I’ll have piston to valve clearance issues, or if the compression ratio will be affected. Any advice?

- I measured the head height in numerous spots (from head gasket surface to valve cover gasket surface) to see where it’s at now. Even though the head is flat, I got diff measurements probably due to lousy calipers. The intake side measured around 4.126” – 4.124” across & the exhaust side measured around 4.118” across. Near the timing chain area, the head height was around 4.113” – 4.118.” So clearly, one side of the head appears to be shorter than the other. WTF happened there?

- The service manual says the head resurface service limit is .008” & that new cylinder head height is 4.132" - 4.136" (104.95 - 105.05mm). So if .008” was taken off, the head must measure at least 4.124" - 4.128" (104.75mm - 104.85mm) to still be useable.

- I feel like more than .008” was taken off my head & keep in mind the block also had some material taken off (probably around .002" - .003") to straighten it. My cyl head's intake side seems to still be in the allowable head height limit; however the exhaust side appears to be .006” - .011” below.

- What should I do? Can I still use this head or is it junk now?

- What thickness head gasket should I use & how do I know if the pistons will hit the valves? Plastigauge? I really was hoping to stick to an OEM head gasket.

- I was planning on going FI soon (only looking for around 400hp), but I don’t want to change my compression ratio should I decide to go back to N/A later down the road. I don’t want to raise/lower my compression by choosing the wrong head gasket thickness. How much of an inches/mm change will change compression ratio?

- Are the thicker aftermarket head gaskets reliable? Any recommendations on which one to use?

- Will I need aftermarket/longer head bolts if I have to use a thicker head gasket?

I really need some help on what to do & any advice is greatly appreciated. My S2K has been down for a year now becasue of all this Thanks in advance.



Rough spots on my head from the bad machine job.


More rough spots - any thoughts?

clio

Aren't there indentations on the head mounting surfaces to give visual limits as to how much can be skimmed?
Sounds like you've received some very dodgy service, hope it works out for you.

Billman250

I would strongly recommend a used, 100% oem, un-milled cylinder head.

With the amount of material removed, your timing chain geometry will be horrible. The chain is going to hook over the top side of the moveable guide, causing extreme rapid chain wear, on top of lost cam timing.

The valve work is among the worst I have seen. The valve faces are not square to the original valve bores.

Slowcrash_101

OP said they tried to install new valves and didn't correct the guide play. Probably tried to cut the seats with the guide play as well. Def better off with a new head. They didn't fix anything actually just made it worse.

Car Analogy

Once you find the new head, use the oem valve train. Aftermarket stuff is a known point of failure.

Anyone can make a mistake. Its what a company does to correct it that really matters. Making you pay for their mistake is at the bottom of the list. Horrible. Using a belt sander to mill a head isn't simply a mistake. It would even be an insult to the word incompetent.

I would take them both to small claims court. Gather all your receipts, photos, facts. In court, documents or it didn't happen. I've done it and won.

Forget emotion. Forget irrelevant details. It doesn't matter how outrageous something is, it only matters that you can show they messed up, and how you can prove $ you are claiming.

Silver_Bullet_S

Thanks so much for your reply Billman250. I certainly respect your expertise. I'm pretty depressed w/ all the headache I've been through & all the money I've lost. My dad passed away suddenly when I was getting the head work done & understandably I couldn't handle things w/ the machine shop at that time. Too much time has passed since then, so there's no recourse I can take against the shops now & i'm just at a loss now & my car's still down.

I was hoping I could salvage this head by using a thicker head gasket & using the adjustable timing chain gear from Ballade Motorsports to compensate for the timing chain geometry. So you feel regardless that this head is just a lost cause & not worth the effort or risk of using at all?

What would be my odds of finding a used un-milled head that it's in decent condition? Wouldn't it have to be local as well in order for me to see if it was ever milled or not & measure its height; it could take a long time to find one. Any thoughts or tips on how to go about this & what's the ballpark cost of a used head? I still have my OEM valve train so, essentially I just need a bare un-milled head.

Also, do you feel the brand new Ferrea valve train in my current messed up cyl head is not even worth using at all if find another head? The parts are brand new & cost me around $800-$1000, which is a huge waste of money for a valve train that was never even used once. I got it because I figured it'd be stronger than OEM stuff & hold up better to FI stress & that it'd help w/ valve float & allow me to rev higher. Is aftermarket stuff really that bad/unreliable? Given your experience, does OEM hold up to FI? Should I just try & sell the unused Ferrea valve train then?

I really appreciate any advice/help/direction you can give me. I'm at a loss right now & I desperately need to get my car running again. Thanks in advance.

Silver_Bullet_S

Thanks for the well wishes. I'm really bummed about everything I went through so far.

Silver_Bullet_S

Thanks so much for your reply/advice. So you feel even if I find another used head to use, that I should ditch the brand new Ferrea valve train altogether for OEM? It sucks that I spent around $800 for all the Ferrea parts & never used them once. Is aftermarket really that bad? I've used Ferrea stuff in other motors (integra/civic) I built in the past w/ no issues, but I know the S2000 is a different animal. I just figured Ferrea stuff would handle more stress/heat (especially w/ FI) & bend vs breaking off if there was ever an issue; plus they seem to have great reviews in other car forums.

I'd love to take both machine shops to small claims court & I did document as much as possible, but I don't think I have any recourse becasue this all happened over a year ago. I got the 1st shop (A&M Motors) to refund me all of my money except $100, which they argued they should get for at least cleaning up/solvent tanking the head. The manager became very aggressive & got in my face & rather than getting into a fist fight, I let him keep the $100 & saved the headache.

The second machine shop (Clark's Auto) is where I'm screwed. I got laid off & my dad died unexpectedly while my car & cyl head was in their shop. His death hit me real hard & I wasn't able to deal w/ anything else at the time. When Clark's forgot to install the clutch in the block, they refused to go back & fix the issue unless I paid $300 more for the additional labor. I said no & they refused to give me my car back; they even knew that I had just lost my dad & took advantage of the situation.

I couldn't deal w/ the extra stress after just losing my father & was busy trying to plan his funeral, so I just paid the shop to be done with it & get my car back; only to find out they didn't even install the oil squirters in the block. One week after getting my car back, a tumor was found in my left hip & I had to get it removed & have my entire left hip replaced w/ an artificial one. The cyl head got put aside in my garage until I was fully recovered (1 yr) & well enough to install the head. That brings me to now, and I just noticed how badly they machined the head & how much material they took off.

I'm guessing too much time has passed & there are too many variables for me to win or have a strong case in small claims court. I'm still paying off medical bills, my car is still down, and now I need a new cyl head. Needless to say things, have been very tough. If you have any tips/advice on how to locate a used head that's in decent shape, I'm all ears. Hard thing is knowing if it's within spec unless it's local & I can measure/inspect it. How much do you think a used head should be cost?

Car Analogy

So sorry to hear about all your troubles. Life hit you with a lot all at once. Kudos to you for standing back up and moving forward after taking such hits that would keep a lesser man down.

Billman should answer about use your aftermarket valve train or oem.

Small claims limits are often quite long. Google for your state what the limits are. Maybe you could still file for shop two.

rpg51

I see from the OP that the block was resurfaced? Is that correct? What exactly was done to the block in that regard?