Rough start in mornings!!!
 

Anyone have this kind of problem? It seems lately (the past week or so) when I first start the car in the morning, it starts out idling very low for a few seconds (kinda like its gonna die) and then it seems the ECU or whatever kicks in and the idle goes up to normal. This seems rather strange to me on a MY2000 S2000 with only 16,000 miles on it. I've never experienced this kind of symptom on a "new" car. Yeah, sure my '91 Prelude does that too on occasion. But then that car a hell of a lot older, too. I don't know. Is anyone else out there experiencing anything like this at all? Again, being a new car I wouldn't expect this type of behavior from it, but then maybe all is ok and I'm just worrying about nothing. Any ideas, guys? TIA.

Can you hear if the air pump is coming on when you start it? Right after the car starts, you should hear the high pitch "whir" come on, then cut off a few seconds later. You may also want to check your spark plugs. If you drive a bunch of short distances, they may be the wrong heat range, which could be fouling them out.

Ever wonder what the dealer might have to say about it?

just give the accelerator one pump before starting ....or after starting just blip the accelerator a little bit.

Not sure whether it is the same for you, but I had a similar problem. I topped up the oil to full(it was at 3/4) and the problem went away. Strange.

I used to have some rough idle problem and someone suggested that I should reset the ECU. You might want to try that. I worked on my case.

How do you reset the ECU?

Pull fuse #25 for about 30 seconds. It's the 3rd one down from the top on the right bank of fuses by the driver's left knee.

Cool, thanks xviper.

had the exact same issue with mine last spring.

x-viper's suggested cure above worked for me.

When's the best time to do this? In the evening when I get home? In the morning right before I start her? I was just going to do it this evening and then see what happens in the morning. Will that work?

I don't think it matters when you do this. Once the ECU is reset, it goes to a bunch of default paramaters and will be that way till it "learns" new ones and this won't happen till you drive it some more.
As an afterthought, I now recall having started a thread about a similar observation of my own in our local forum. Please have a look:

https://www.s2ki.com/forums/showthread.php?...&threadid=77283

As an update to this thread (note the dates), the last two mornings after my night shift, the temp has been around that magic 5-7*C mark when I started the car. The car has indeed learned and it starts normal now. FYI.

From this experience, I would say either allow the car to learn when it has the "hiccup" or reset the ECU so the new conditions don't present such a "learning impediment" for it. Either way, it's just two different routes to the same goal.

Cool, thanks bro.

I also have this problem sometimes.I s it recommended to reset the ecu if you have a v-afc?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MacK430
[B]I also have this problem sometimes.I

[QUOTE]Originally posted by xviper
[B]
As I don't have a vafc, I don't have first hand experience but this is what I've read on another thread.

Well 2 mornings ago I tried pulling the Backup fuse for a few minutes and I am still having the same problem. Tomorrow I will try either priming the fuel system by turning the ignition key a few time prior to start. Or I'll try pumping the gas once before starting as well. Is this an issue that needs to be dealth with under warranty. In other words, is this indicating something that might fail once the car is out of warranty, but well under the liftime the part should last?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by baldy74
[B]Well 2 mornings ago I tried pulling the Backup fuse for a few minutes and I am still having the same problem.

Does the S2000 have an Electronic Air Control Valve (EACV) to act as the choke? My '91 Integra had one, and if it failed, the car wouldn't start normally.

Well, I'm still having the same problem, only now it stalls more often that just catching. I dropped it off at the dealership (Team Honda) all last week and they were unable to determine what the problem is. He said they tried reprogramming the ECU - didn't work. Then they thought it might be a bad fuel backflow valve (?, something that keeps fuel pressurized near the engine after the car is turned off). Then they took readings off of everything at startup and said they are all normal. He said they don't have a clue what's causing it. I guess the next thing they are going to do is have some special tech come out and take a look at it. All I know is that they better fix the damn thing. At one point he even tried blaming it on my amp. I quickly shut him down on that one, seeing as how when my amp was installed the fuel line was hit, so I had THEM replaced the fuel line and do the spark plug TSB at the same time. I asked him if they thought any of THIS work could be causing anything. Of course he dropped that subject real quick.

Well, any ideas guys? I'm trying not to get stressed about this, but I have a feeling that they are going to try and brush me off as usual and play the 'ol "since we don't know what the problem is, we don't have to fix it" BS. If anyone has any feedback, that would be great. TIA, guys.

I still think it's a computer "gremlin" but the computer does things based on what all sensors tell it. After my initial episode a couple months ago when the temps started to dip, I've not had a re-occurence of this problem even though the temp went back up to summer norms and now it's come down again to pre-winter levels.
Mine "learned" and has remembered what it learned. Yours obviously has NOT. I would still recommend removing the slack in your throttle cable. Then I might suggest getting some spray carb cleaner (make sure it's injector AND sensor safe), remove the intake tube to expose the throttle body. Open up the throttle plate and spray clean that whole area, especially where the T. plate seals up the opening. Get an old tooth brush and clean off the sealing surface. Then one more quick spray to flush it a bit.
Don't use too much or the engine might have a hard time starting. Do this after you've warmed up the engine so you don't have the first start stumbles to compound the hard start due to the carb cleaner. Once the engine is running smoothly, spray the cleaner around the perimeter of the T. plate and work the throttle a bit to suck the cleaner into intake passages. This trick cured the same thing with my last 2 Vettes. The throttle plates were leaking too much air at cold start up.
Also, do you have any mods that might have affected the cold start, like a Hondata heat gasket or anything else that you've forgotten about?

Xviper,

I don't have any mods, except for a drop in K&N. So, it sounds like you think air might be leaking around the t-plate at startup, maybe due to a dirty seal or something? I'll go ahead and check, but I can't see how this would even get dirty at all - isn't this what the air filter keeps from happening? The car is so new, I just can't see how it would even get dirty in there. I'll take a look and see how things are, but I think I'm just going to have to stand my ground with honda and demand THEY figure it out, and FIX it.

Thanks for the help, xviper. Hope this all works out.

If your car is relatively new, you most likely don't have any "grunge" buildup. Yes, the air filter is supposed to keep the dirt out but remember, your PCV brings up oil vapours from your crankcase. Even though you have an oil filter, your oil stills gets pretty black after a while. It's not dirt per se, but it's still crud. And after 2 or more years, the crud can build up. If it looks clean, I wouldn't worry about the carb cleaner, but you might still have a vacuum leak somewhere and these are very hard to find, just like electrical diagnosis. These may not generate a "CEL" but may still tell the computer to do something weird.

mine has the same condition rough start up in the mornings doesn't seem to matter what air temp also it almost dies when coming to stop light pulling it out of gear and quickly letting off the accelerator,

I checked my denso plugs all seemed to be clean I found 1 slightly loose re-torqued all plugs
problem went away for 4 days has recently reappeared
I don't know what to make of it

My car has been doing the same thing for the last several days as well now that temperatures have gotten fairly chilly. It does exactly the same thing you describe, and the oil pressure light seems to stay on longer than usual before it goes off. I went ahead and topped off the oil before leaving work today, and for some reason, it didn't do that. I'll see what happens tomarrow morning. I'm at 3000 miles now and i've burned a full quart of oil now. Damn...........I guess I should be hitting Vtec more often :)

Mine does it but I know a workaround that may shed some light on the cause. Tobi (FullThrottle) had a theory and a fix (sorta). He suggested cycling the key TWICE before hitting the Start Button. So I tried it. I put key in, let the beeps cease, turn key off, turn key back on and let the beeps finish, press Start Button. Vroom. No hesitation. I tried starting recently without cycling it twice and got the jitters. *shrug*

Well, I have to say thanks to everyone for their input. I have tried everything everyone has suggested and am still having the problem. Team wants me to drop it off again tonight, as they are first going to try replacing the fuel regulator (I believe?), and see if that has any effect. Let me ask everyone something. Those of you who are having the same problem, are any of you getting a CEL at all? The dealership is confused as to why the car isn't throwing any codes. They are thinking they might even try replacing ecu, but we haven't gotten to that point just yet. I will have them replace this part first, and then I'll post back with an update.

Damn, I hate not having my baby on friday night (or the weekend, for that matter!)

Never a "CEL" here.

My '02 with 16k does that as well. did when it was brand new as well. all depended on how cold the night was. Didn't happen all summer for me. I've been attributing it to New England weather.

Well, just thought I'd post an update. After having the regulator replaced, I tried it out this weekend and no go. I am still having the problem. I did notice that it wasn't nearly as bad on Saturday, which was actually a rather warm day compared to how cold it's usually been (and I didn't start it until about noon, so it was actually quite nice and warm out). I passed this info on to the dealership, and suggested maybe we look at something more air related, ie. MAP sensor, O2 sensor, etc. He's not "acting" on my recommendations but is definitely going to call Honda again to ask what they should do next. I spoke with the tech that's handling the car on Friday and it seems they are just going through the "hoops" that corporate wants them to go through so that in the end, the problem gets resolved. That way corporate can't say "well you didn't do what we wanted you to do, so now we can't fix it." Which is a goog thing, I just think it's going to take some time.

On that note, I have a question for anyone out there. If your warranty expires before a pre-existing issue is resolved, I am under the presumtion that this one issue is still covered until it is resolved. Anyone have any first-hand knowledge in dealing with this?

Well, thanks again for everyone's support. I'll continue to keep you all posted. Hopefully, eventually I will be able to post a fix for this issue for those having the same problems.

Thanks, guys.

If the problem was documented or a fix attempted prior to end of warranty period, this problem is still covered within a reasonable amount of time. That's where they can get you. "Reasonable" can be interpreted differently by different people. And since this problem only occurs about once a year (for me), one year may be a bit too long.

Well, here's the latest update. After getting the car back and waiting for them to talk to their tech support guys at Honda, they were told that it might be a problem with my amps drawing too much power at startup. I told the advisor this was rediculous (we're talking like 150 Watts RMS total), but to cooperate I would go home that night and disconnect them from my battery and then try to start her up the next morning. Of course the next morning it still had the same problem. I called him back and told him this and then he said to let him call tech support back and see what they want to do. I just talked to him today and he says now they are going to have some Technician for our area come out and take a look at it, but that it was going to be like 6 weeks at least before he would be in town. I guess this isn't really a big deal time wise, since we just had our first snow and I'm pretty much not going to be driving her at all until spring anyways.

In the meantime, I am still planning on dropping it off at Ralph Schomp in Denver and have Rob take a look at it. I understand from posts on here that he has an S2K as well, so I'm hoping that a tech who is also an owner might be able to bring some insight to the problem. I told Team Honda this as well and he agreed I should try it, as their hands are tied for the next month or so.

So, I'm off to Denver this weekend to drop my baby off indefinitely. I just hope they are able to figure something out. Just thought I'd post an update. Wish me luck.

Dont listen to that bull about your amp. I would think this engine has what's called an IAC(idle air control) motor. It's a small device mounted on the throttle body that meters idle air moving through a port which goes around the throttle plate. This is the FIRST thing to check out in your case.

This may be a complete stab in the dark! but alot of cars have a thing called an EGR Valve (exhaust gas resurculation) I had a problem with another car ages ago when the engines revs on idle were all over the show, sometimes it even died compleatly and a little blip of the throttle first thing did sometimes worked but when this valve was replaced it was perfect:thumbup:
Andy

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Andrew Doherty
[B]This may be a complete stab in the dark! but alot of cars have a thing called an EGR Valve (exhaust gas resurculation) I had a problem with another car ages ago when the engines revs on idle were all over the show, sometimes it even died compleatly and a little blip of the throttle first thing did sometimes worked but when this valve was replaced it was perfect:thumbup:

S2000's don't have an EGR? Oh Happy Days!


Anyway, how in the world does the S2000 get certified as an LEV without an EGR? The EGR is supposed to be one of the key items in most emmissions systems at reducing emmissions.

Oh well worth a guess, like I said a stab in the dark "with a blindfold":LOL:
Andy

I have this problem too. During the summer no problem but recently its been starting and almost stalling. Being as naive as I am about cars I thought it was bc it was just cold but I noticed that when I drive and am slowing down alomst to a stop after I push the clutch pedal in and let off of the gas it almost wants to stall. It comes real close to doing it too. Its a pain. I blip the gas when I first start it and its ok but I dont like to do that because I feel like Im warming up a choke like in my 74 caddy in the morning. My 1 yr warranty expires in the next week so ill look into it.

I have this problem too. During the summer no problem but when recently its been starting and almost stalling. Being as naive as I am I thought it was bc it was just cold but I noticed that when I drive and am slowing down alomst to a stop after I push the clutch pedal in and let off of the gas it almost wants to stall. It comes real close to doing it too. Its a pain. I blip the gas and its ok but I dont like to do that because I feel like Im warming up a choke like in my 74 caddy in the morning. My 1 yr warranty expires in the next week so ill look into it.

Just another thought:rolleyes: A few other members on this board have experienced their clutch sticking, (basicly not disengaging) kind of like when you stop and don't put your clutch in and the car shakes then stalls, I wonder if this is related at all?????????????
Andy

I have that exact same problem with the clutch not releasing and it's driving me crazy. When I brought that up to the dealer, they just said don't worry about it, and bring it back after the transmission is blown up, since i'm also experiencing this nasty 2nd gear grind now and then. Lots of times when i'm shifting into 2nd gear, I have to pull the shifter hard out of 1st gear because it won't release, and i've had this problem where I was backing out of my driveway, and the clutch didn't disengage causing my car to act like it was about to stall.

I've also been having this rough start issue in the cold mornings, but after I changed the oil and filter, it seems to have went away.

I dont know what to say about these cars but are most cars like this when they are new or is it just the s2k? Its not like I drive my car hard.

I have never had any car do this - when new or otherwise. Some motorcycles maybe but these were definate a case of badly adjusted clutches. That's why I still think that the problem lies here.

Baldy74


Try a search on map sensor .....
I had the same problem. Someone suggested that I take out the map sensor, give it couple taps and put it back. If it still doesn't work, have your map sensor replaced with a new one. This might help.

Yeah, that's what I'm thinking in my gut too as well. I dropped her off at Schomp on Saturday. When they call me back to give me an update, I think I'm going to make a suggestion that they try looking at the map sensor, as it seems to see quite a few people have a problem with that. I'll keep you all posted.

I have this same problem too. My car will actually start and die about 1 or 2 times when the temp is below freezing. I thought it was because of our high compression engines and the 10W30 oil. Now I wonder.

Well, here is the lates update. I just got a call from Rob at Ralph Schomp. He was mainly calling to verify what he was experiencing was the same issue to which I was referring. It was. He said he has started it 3 times and 2 out of 3 it has started rough and/or died. He says that his own S2000 does the same thing (granted he only starts it on occasion he said, as he races it), and that 2 other S's he has in right now being serviced for other things have started up the same way as well. He is kinda saying that he thinks its a normal thing for this. He is attributing it to having a high compression.

I could sort of understand this, but then I also don't see why it does it when its warm out as well. I did make the suggestion to him to try checking the MAP sensor. I explained to him that several people on here have had this issue and it was resolved by replacing that. He's not sure why it would matter, but I think he is going to try checking into it and see what else he can find out. Well, not much more than that. Not sure if he is actually going to replace it or just hook it up to the computer and test. My problem which this is that is definitely possible that if the part is failing and reading incorrectly, it could be reporting everything is ok when it isn't.

Well, I hope to hear from him either tomorrow or Thursday with an update. I guess I'm just trying to decide whether or not to accept if this really is a "normal" symptom that can occur with our cars, or if some of us are experiencing a potential problem. Any comments on this welcome. Thanks again, guys.

This is NOT even remotely normal. He might be a nice guy but I think he's just in over his head. He simply has run out of ideas so the final answer is "It's normal". :rolleyes: :banghead:
In the last 2 years and some 27,000 km that I've had my car, it has on 2 occasions done this. Each time, it lasted about 3-5 starting episodes and it cured itself. So, out of thousands of starts, only about a 1/2 dozen of those were "bad" ones. I think that some cars just are not able to either "learn" or they have another issue that is preventing them from learning. Although this problem has been reported by several board members, these are only a very small percentage of all board members. "Normal" would imply the reverse statistics.
Don't accept "normal" as the final solution.

Mine had a funny start only once when the weather turned really cold. Now even when temps are down to 15F (-18C) she starts up pretty good and idles at 2100 then gradually drops down.

I do believe your car has "learned" and adapted. If it's anything like mine, you should be OK till next fall.

Newest update. I talked to Rob again this morning (I must agree he is really good about getting back with you and keeping you posted on what's going on). He says he ran a report on the engine at startup and sent it in to tech support. He also, by the way, says that TEAM HONDA never got back with tech support on the issue. TEAM was supposed to send in the report to them as well, but they didn't show it as occurring yet. TEAM told me they had.

Well, everything on the report showed normal and within limits. No new news here. They checked the pressure on the fuel line again (they start it, kill it, let it sit for 30 minutes, and then make sure it hasn't droped more than 10 psi -- it had dropped only 9, which is within limits). If this had been below 10, then they would have replaced the fuel regulator, which I told him has been done already anyways. They also mentioned the battery was only showing like 8 or 9 volts at startup, and it needs 10. He asked if I was having any problems with the battery, told eu no. Of course, this COULD be caused by the amps, but not necessarily cause THIS issue.

He then tried to address the possibility of the quality of gas in the Front Range area. I admitted this could be a possibility, but one that I would only consider after every other possibility had been ruled out. If they think its local gas, regional weather condition, yada yada yada, then they will need to prove this by ruling everyting else out.

But, he was still pretty good. He mentioned these possibilities, but then went on to say he will first try replacing the IAC valve (Idle Air Control valve, I believe). If this doesn't work, says he will look at doing a valve job on it, in the off chance one is out of adjustment enough to cause a lack of "vacuum" pressure. I'm not so sure on the valve job being the issue, but hey, I'm not going to complain either. The IAC, though, definitely sounds like a logical possibility. Oh, by the way. He looked at the specs from the report on the MAP sensor and says its fine.

All in all, still not to bad service wise, minus the main fact that the issue still isn't fixed. If it takes some time to find the answer, willing to give it up in the interest of finding a fix for me and everyone else. He says he will overnight it and hopefully get it installed tomorrow and start her tomorrow after that to see if any changes.

I'll keep you all posted.

We might be getting somewhere here. I spoke with Rob again yesterday afternoon. He's the lates deal. First he says the IAC valve is backordered til Nov 14. Says he spoke with tech support and they decided to cancel going that route. Instead, the first wanted him to try replacing the battery, as it wasn't showing enough voltage (like 8 or 9). He tested it and it failed at like 9-something. So he replaced the battery, but it didn't fix it. Then TS had him take readings of the MAP sensor at both idle and 2500rpm (no load, hot engine). Both the numbers showed lower than normal voltage readings on the MAP, so they are going try changing that. From what I remember, he was also suspecting timing might be an issue, so he is also going to adjust the timing (is this the same as a valve job?) in the meantime while waiting for the MAP to come in (should be installed by sometime monday).

At any rate, the problem is still there, but it seems like we might be on to something. Hopefully!! And yes, I already suggested to them they look at the MAP sensor, but they though it looked ok before.

IS adjusting the timing the same as a valve job? Just wondering. I thought they were both related.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by baldy74
[B]We might be getting somewhere here.

i'll give the ECU thing a try

hey baldy74 good job in trying to track this down mine is getting worse so I'll be happy to see what you learn mine, will go in to Markley Motors some time 2nd week in Nov, hopefully your's will be resolved by then.

They have given up. I just got off the phone with Rob. Says before he tried replacing MAP sensor from another car, he took a snapshot of it and the voltage readings were exactly the same, so he says he say no point in swapping them. And this car is exhibiting the exact same problem - brand new with only 2k miles on it. I tried explaining to him that all this proves is that another car has the same problem. His control isn't and different from his variable - it just another example of the exact same variable. Told him he needs to try it with a part from a car that ISN'T exhibiting the problem. He says doesn't have a car that doesn't exhibit this problem. Says they all do this.

He said he still has authorization from Tech support to replaced the IAC valve, but he doubts this is the problem because he has physically checked it and says it's working fine. At this point there is nothing else he can do.

He did mention one thing, and this is where I need everyone else's help. He says, according to tech support, they only have five documented instances of this prolem, and 3 are from Rob. I know a lot of you out there seem to have this problem, and if you still are, can you try and take it to your local dealerships so that we can have this documented. I gather and issue like this purely numbers driven, and they aren't even going to escalate an issue like this if only a handfull of people are having the problem. If they see that a lot more people are experiencing this, then they can't deny the issue's existence, nor that it's a prominent one as well. Or maybe I am just one of the few who is experiencing this problem, and I'll just have to live with it.

Well, not sure what else I can do. I've tried dealing with Honda customer service before, and the afe F@#$ing useless. They just end up contacting the dealership and talking with them, and then they just take the same position as the dealership. If anyone else is able to have this issue resolved by a dealership under warranty, please let me know. Or, if you have any other recourse that I can follow (that is actually productive and not just more banging me head against the wall) PLEASE share this as well.

Sorry this thread went on for so long and didn't even end up with a resolution. :banghead:

I'm pretty sure that AHM has to give you a new car if they can't fix it. I'm pretty sure this falls under the Lemon Law. My landlord from years ago bought a Chevy truck, and after the dealer couldn't fix a problem with her transmission, she was given a new one.

But how do you prove its a problem? According to Rob, every car he's ever seen (including his own) does this, so getting a new car wouldn't fix the issue. This is the mindset they have.

That doesn't make any sense to me at all. If "every car Rob has ever seen does this", then why have they spent any time on it? Why did they call tech support, then tell you that only 5 cases have been reported to them...

FYI, in the 8 months and 15K miles I've had my 'O2, it has always started smoothly.

Maybe every car HE'S seen does this (I somehow doubt it) but not EVERY car does this. Another dealer perhaps?

Mine doesn't do it anymore. Stopped when i filled the tank back up.

Using any specific brand, Kwando? Mine starts rough and even stalls sometimes in this cold. Perhaps the 91 octane from the QuickieMart isn't cutting it for me.

Kwando, that's about the only other thing I can think of. What brand of station do you use? I don't live in Denver or else I would try the same station you use. I consistently use Conoco, sometimes Texaco (I guess Shell now). Always 91 otctane. Rob says he uses 100+ from the race track and his still does it. But he's not worried about it. Do you park your car in a garage or outside. I don't have a garage, so maybe this is an issue as well. I don't know. I've also get friends who build engines all the time that say what I am experiencing is actually common with high compression engines. At this point, I'm just not sure what else I can do. Or if there even is anything I CAN do.

Another quick thought. Kwando, when's the last time you tried a fuel system cleaner? I've never used on in the 6 months I've owned her, mostly because people say you shouldn't need to since additives are built into the gas. Unless maybe this isn't the case, and Colorado gas is just plain crap. I don't know, just an idea.

I live in Texas, pretty damn close to sea level, and I just saw that you are in Colorado, so I'm curious if this could be an altitude thing. Is there anyone NOT experiencing this that lives at a high elevation?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by gernby
[B]I live in Texas, pretty damn close to sea level, and I just saw that you are in Colorado, so I'm curious if this could be an altitude thing.

What's the altitude in Colorado Springs, CO? Isn't it going to be much higher than 3500 feet?

bash and baldy74 no specific kind of gas. Mainly use 91 octane. Use mostly Conoco or Phillips 66. Car is always parked inside of a garage. This has actually happened a few times in my S2000. Every time I have driven the car until it needed a fill up, after a full tank of gas everything was fine. Never used any fuel system cleaner in the 19 months I have owned the car.

It could be the additive that they use in CO's gas... :confused:

The first time I had this happen, was in the beginning of Oct. when I was back in Wisconsin (~1000 ft above sea level), and it was a cold morning (30-40ish). I started the car and it stalled. I started it again and it was fine. It then happened again when I got back to Boulder (~5300 ft) on a cold morning. So I don't think its the altitude. I had never started it in the cold prior to Wisconsin. I was using 93 octane in Wisconsin, and I use 91 in Colorado.

I put a bottle of fuel injector cleaner in at every oil change now. I don't know if this would resolve your problem and it is certainly not needed in a car that is still relatively new (less than a year old) but even with the new fuels and all their additives, it would hurt to spend a 3-4 bucks for a bottle of FI cleaner every oil change.

The fact that I was able to "cure" the problem artificially by plugging it in "might" point toward something to do with one or more of the temp sensors in the engine. I just can't say for sure.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by xviper
[B]
I put a bottle of fuel injector cleaner in at every oil change now.

There may be some validity in that but I hope you're wrong. I've been doing this to all my fuel injected, cat equipped cars since 1987. The longest being a 11+ year old Minivan. Other than losing the block heater and having the coolant all fall out, the car is still running just fine on the streets today with its second owner. Mind you, that thing didn't have 2 O2 sensors like this car does. :confused:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by xviper
[B]
There may be some validity in that but I hope you're wrong.