modifry

Last summer I ran a track day at Road Atlanta and finished off my stock pads after four 30-minute sessions (I had 50k miles on the pads going in) . They exhibited a lot of brake fade but were still working at the end of the day, and I was >120 on the back straight and >110 on the front. I was obviously out-braking anyone near me in the intermediate group, so I was fairly pleased with the brakes except for the fade.

To address that issue I bought some #3's for a track day at Little Talladega last month, thinking it's a smaller track and with some real track pads I'd never see any fade. Didn't work out. The brakes were actually worse than at RA with stock pads. Here's the results of four or five 20-minute sessions.


Both events were on hot (>90) days, but at Talladega I only broke 100 on one corner, and overall everything was slower than at RA. I do know that after 2 cool-down laps (no braking at all) it took 5 minutes of sitting in the pits before the IR thermometer would read the rotor temps (it has an upper limit of 500 degrees). So I don't really know how hot the rotors were. The front calipers measured 360-380 and were hot enough to melt the valve stem cap when I just happened to park with it next to the caliper.

To prepare for the track day I flushed the system with a pressure bleeder (super blue fluid) then installed new rotors 2 weeks ahead of time and put 600 miles on them with stock pads. I then installed the #3's and put 800 street miles on them before taking to the track. I admit I didn't do a specific "bedding" procedure, but I figured with that many miles I was OK.

Any ideas? Am I just too hard on the brakes? Or was 800 street miles no substitute for bedding the pads?

I did take some co-drivers for a ride and their usual comment was "BRAKE, DAMMIT, BRAKE!!!!!". I think that even with the SC and bringing 8-10 mph more speed into the corners than they were I was braking later than the stock cars.

I will be doing a Roebling Road track day soon and am going back to stock pads and will try to be easier on the brakes. I won't be doing enough track days with my car to warrant a whole new brake system, so other than that what might I try?

Tedster

Bob,

what tires were you on?

More than the top speeds, the difference in speeds from start of braking to turn entry are what's important. A big, fast track with 120 - 90mph sweepers can be easier on brakes than a small, technical track with 100-30mph haripins.

The only problem I had with BrakeMan #3s was that they wore out much faster than I expected, around 3 track days. But I tend to be easy on brakes.

I really like the Carbotech Panther Plus pads; they're lasting longer then the #3s. You might try those.

Good luck,

Ted

davepk

Out of curiosity, What tires are you running?

"BRAKE, DAMMIT, BRAKE!!!!!". LOL!!! Have you checked your passenger side foot well for a deformed firewall where a brake pedal would be if it were a RHD?

Remember that its not so much the top speed that determines how hard you are on the brakes. Its the Delta V that's needed and the amount of recovery time before the next brake zone. For instance I can get the car to much higher speeds at WillowSprings raceway than I can at LagunaSeca but LS is much harder on the brakes than WS because of 3 tight turns that require you to brake to very low speeds from 100+. So in other words, its track specific as to how hard you are on your pads. Also, your SC and higher entry speeds will add to the heat load you brakes will see.

From the looks of the pics I'd say you over cooked your pads. I think its time for you to remove the dust shield from behind your rotors and to look into some brake ducting. That may be sufficient for you to continue to use the #3s but I'd look into a pad with a higher temp range, say something like the Hawk HT10, Performance Friction 97 or Pagid Yellow.

The lack of a proper bedding may have contributed to your problem. The bedding is meant to bring the pads upto temp in stages. I think this is meant to allow the binding material to gass off in an orderly manner. Some pads seem to be much more sensitive to proper bedding than others, indeed the PF 97s don't require any special bedding procedure.

Don't go back to the track with stock pads, you'll regret it. Take them with you as backup but use a track pad at the track.

CoralDoc

I've done the same thing to Brakeman #3s and finally resigned myself to running race-specific compounds with dedicated track rotors. I'm currently running Cobalt Friction GTR Spec VR in the front and ITR Spec C in the rear. The performance of the front pads is excellent with low wear rates, but the rears are wearing faster - about the same as my compormize pads did before.

I'll be at Roebling Road on the 27th & 28th with Chin Motorsports - is that the event you'll be attending? If so, it may be instructive to give ride-alongs to compare braking performance.

cdelena

I have never seen #3's look like that. It sure looks like the binders are cooked at the surface so you might conclude that the street use never got them hot enough.. but I would have guessed you did in a few laps, so maybe they need to cool and out-gas?

Although #3's are not my favorite I have run them pretty hard without problem.. but with my ducting and a track that is easier on brakes I probably never got them that hot.

I would suggest doing a true bedding procedure next time. There are plenty of compounds to suggest but I don't think that was the problem. All pad makers suggest bedding which gets them very hot and then lets them fully cool before laps, but I have seen some used without a good bedding that did not do that.

I do suggest you stay away from stock pads on the track.. they do poorly when hot and will take away from your enjoyment, performance, and maybe safety.

modifry

Thanks everyone for the input.

I am running stock S02's at both events, and at Little Talladega the tire temps usually were around 140 but one session they were 180-200, which seemed way too hot to me. But that's the time I had a passenger in the car and was doing too much scrubbing because of the trouble I was having with the brakes.

I will make sure to do a proper bedding procedure next time and think I will try removing the brake shields too. I've read where some people are concerned running with no shields might cause a heat problem for the ball joints - any thoughts on that?

You might be right about the speed differential and time between corners. RA has higher speeds but is much longer and has more time between hard braking corners. Little Talladega is only 1.3 miles long with about 5 turns, all of which need lots braking. If I remember right, the enter/exit speeds are like: 95-40, 75-30, 80-40, 100-60, 95-45. With all that going on in 1.3 miles there's not much time to cool things off.

Where do I get them?

I originally tried to steer clear of any pads that were reportedly hard on rotors (because of rotor cost), but at this point trashing a set of $265 pads in one event is definitely not saving me money.

CoralDoc - I'll be there with the Atlanta S2000 club mid-November. Our club Events Coordinator has managed to get us a day to ourselves, a pretty amazing feat in my opinion. Right now it's limited to Atlanta S2000 members only but if we can't fill the slots it will opened up to S2KI. How much is the Chin event costing?

davepk - As far as the passenger footwell being deformed, I have a 10" sub under the carpet, and did notice the metal grill was pushed in far more than casual foot pressure should have caused. Should I check for brown stains on the passenger seat?

.

Tedster

I'm not sure who carries Carbotech pads, but I'm sure at least one of the sponsors does.

The Panther Plus are not hard on rotors, in my experience. They're not really a compromise pad like the #3, but you can drive them on the street some. The first stop or two they will be down on grip, until they warm up. They do squeak and dust a fair amount, but the dust isn't nearly as nasty as some pads'.

davepk

[QUOTE]Originally posted by modifry
[B]I will make sure to do a proper bedding procedure next time and think I will try removing the brake shields too.

E30M3

As an aside I noticed that Honda updated the brake pads for the 04's....maybe the new fronts would work on earlier cars. (If you don't want/need track pads) I assume they impoved the compound, but we'll have to wait and see.

Stan

Wildncrazy

Try #62s instead of #3s. I had 62s on my S and 3s on my Miata, same track same day and the 62s faired better. Obviously I was a lot faster in the S than in the Miata.

3s had surface cracks at the end of the day, but nothing like yours, whereas the 62s were much smoother. They were also quieter