Patriot II
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From: Vegas Baby, Vegas
Patriot II
USA Patriot Act II would make news gathering a crime
Think the first Patriot Act was a civil rights and personal privacy tragedy? Just wait until you see Patriot Act II. Section 102 of the police state bill would make it a crime to engage in any information gathering, meaning that people who gather news headlines on the Internet would suddenly be deemed criminals and terrorists.
http://www.newstarget.com/002477.html
I swear I don't go looking for this stuff, it just winds up in my inbox
Think the first Patriot Act was a civil rights and personal privacy tragedy? Just wait until you see Patriot Act II. Section 102 of the police state bill would make it a crime to engage in any information gathering, meaning that people who gather news headlines on the Internet would suddenly be deemed criminals and terrorists.
http://www.newstarget.com/002477.html
I swear I don't go looking for this stuff, it just winds up in my inbox
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Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 9,280
Likes: 1
From: knoxville, TN
There are two glaring areas that need to be looked at concerning this new legislation:
1. The secretive tactics being used by the White House and Speaker Hastert to keep even the existence of this legislation secret would be more at home in Communist China than in the United States. The fact that Dick Cheney publicly managed the steamroller passage of the first Patriot Act, ensuring that no one was allowed to read it and publicly threatening members of Congress that if they didn't vote in favor of it that they would be blamed for the next terrorist attack, is by the White House's own definition terrorism. The move to clandestinely craft and then bully passage of any legislation by the Executive Branch is clearly an impeachable offense.
2. The second Patriot Act is a mirror image of powers that Julius Caesar and Adolf Hitler gave themselves. Whereas the First Patriot Act only gutted the First, Third, Fourth and Fifth Amendments, and seriously damaged the Seventh and the Tenth, the Second Patriot Act reorganizes the entire Federal government as well as many areas of state government under the dictatorial control of the Justice Department, the Office of Homeland Security and the FEMA NORTHCOM military command. The Domestic Security Enhancement Act 2003, also known as the Second Patriot Act is by its very structure the definition of dictatorship.
I challenge all Americans to study the new Patriot Act and to compare it to the Constitution, Bill of Rights and Declaration of Independence. Ninety percent of the act has nothing to do with terrorism and is instead a giant Federal power-grab with tentacles reaching into every facet of our society. It strips American citizens of all of their rights and grants the government and its private agents total immunity. Here is a quick thumbnail sketch of just some of the draconian measures encapsulated within this tyrannical legislation:
SECTION 501 (Expatriation of Terrorists) expands the Bush administration's "enemy combatant" definition to all American citizens who "may" have violated any provision of Section 802 of the first Patriot Act. (Section 802 is the new definition of domestic terrorism, and the definition is "any action that endangers human life that is a violation of any Federal or State law.") Section 501 of the second Patriot Act directly connects to Section 125 of the same act. The Justice Department boldly claims that the incredibly broad Section 802 of the First USA Patriot Act isn't broad enough and that a new, unlimited definition of terrorism is needed.
Under Section 501 a US citizen engaging in lawful activities can be grabbed off the street and thrown into a van never to be seen again. The Justice Department states that they can do this because the person "had inferred from conduct" that they were not a US citizen. Remember Section 802 of the First USA Patriot Act states that any violation of Federal or State law can result in the "enemy combatant" terrorist designation.
SECTION 201 of the second Patriot Act makes it a criminal act for any member of the government or any citizen to release any information concerning the incarceration or whereabouts of detainees. It also states that law enforcement does not even have to tell the press who they have arrested and they never have to release the names.
SECTION 301 and 306 (Terrorist Identification Database) set up a national database of "suspected terrorists" and radically expand the database to include anyone associated with suspected terrorist groups and anyone involved in crimes or having supported any group designated as "terrorist." These sections also set up a national DNA database for anyone on probation or who has been on probation for any crime, and orders State governments to collect the DNA for the Federal government.
SECTION 312 gives immunity to law enforcement engaging in spying operations against the American people and would place substantial restrictions on court injunctions against Federal violations of civil rights across the board.
SECTION 101 will designate individual terrorists as foreign powers and again strip them of all rights under the "enemy combatant" designation.
SECTION 102 states clearly that any information gathering, regardless of whether or not those activities are illegal, can be considered to be clandestine intelligence activities for a foreign power. This makes news gathering illegal.
SECTION 103 allows the Federal government to use wartime martial law powers domestically and internationally without Congress declaring that a state of war exists.
SECTION 106 is bone-chilling in its straightforwardness. It states that broad general warrants by the secret FSIA court (a panel of secret judges set up in a star chamber system that convenes in an undisclosed location) granted under the first Patriot Act are not good enough. It states that government agents must be given immunity for carrying out searches with no prior court approval. This section throws out the entire Fourth Amendment against unreasonable searches and seizures.
SECTION 109 allows secret star chamber courts to issue contempt charges against any individual or corporation who refuses to incriminate themselves or others. This sections annihilate the last vestiges of the Fifth Amendment.
SECTION 110 restates that key police state clauses in the first Patriot Act were not sunsetted and removes the five year sunset clause from other subsections of the first Patriot Act. After all, the media has told us: "This is the New America. Get used to it. This is forever."
SECTION 111 expands the definition of the "enemy combatant" designation.
SECTION 122 restates the government's newly announced power of "surveillance without a court order."
SECTION 123 restates that the government no longer needs warrants and that the investigations can be a giant dragnet-style sweep described in press reports about the Total Information Awareness Network. One passage reads, "thus the focus of domestic surveillance may be less precise than that directed against more conventional types of crime."
*Note: Over and over again, in subsection after subsection, the second Patriot Act states that its new Soviet-type powers will be used to fight international terrorism, domestic terrorism and other types of crimes. Of course the government has already announced in Section 802 of the first USA Patriot act that any crime is considered domestic terrorism.
SECTION 126 grants the government the right to mine the entire spectrum of public and private sector information from bank records to educational and medical records. This is the enacting law to allow ECHELON and the Total Information Awareness Network to break down any and all walls of privacy. The government states that they must look at everything to "determine" if individuals or groups might have a connection to terrorist groups. As you can now see, you are guilty until proven innocent.
SECTION 127 allows the government to takeover coroners' and medical examiners' operations whenever they see fit. See how this is like Bill Clinton's special medical examiner he had in Arkansas that ruled that people had committed suicide when their arms and legs had been cut off.
SECTION 128 allows the Federal government to place gag orders on Federal and State Grand Juries and to take over the proceedings. It also disallows individuals or organizations to even try to quash a Federal subpoena. So now defending yourself will be a terrorist action.
SECTION 129 destroys any remaining whistle blower protection for Federal agents.
SECTION 202 allows corporations to keep secret their activities with toxic biological, chemical or radiological materials.
SECTION 205 allows top Federal officials to keep all their financial dealings secret, and anyone investigating them can be considered a terrorist. This should be very useful for Dick Cheney to stop anyone investigating Haliburton.
SECTION 303 sets up national DNA database of suspected terrorists. The database will also be used to "stop other unlawful activities." It will share the information with state, local and foreign agencies for the same purposes.
SECTION 311 federalizes your local police department in the area of information sharing.
SECTION 313 provides liability protection for businesses, especially big businesses that spy on their customers for Homeland Security, violating their privacy agreements. It goes on to say that these are all preventative measures - has anyone seen Minority Report? This is the access hub for the Total Information Awareness Network.
SECTION 321 authorizes foreign governments to spy on the American people and to share information with foreign governments.
SECTION 322 removes Congress from the extradition process and allows officers of the Homeland Security complex to extradite American citizens anywhere they wish. It also allows Homeland Security to secretly take individuals out of foreign countries.
SECTION 402 is titled "Providing Material Support to Terrorism." The section reads that there is no requirement to show that the individual even had the intent to aid terrorists.
SECTION 403 expands the definition of weapons of mass destruction to include any activity that affects interstate or foreign commerce.
SECTION 404 makes it a crime for a terrorist or "other criminals" to use encryption in the commission of a crime.
SECTION 408 creates "lifetime parole" (basically, slavery) for a whole host of crimes.
SECTION 410 creates no statute of limitations for anyone that engages in terrorist actions or supports terrorists. Remember: any crime is now considered terrorism under the first Patriot Act.
SECTION 411 expands crimes that are punishable by death. Again, they point to Section 802 of the first Patriot Act and state that any terrorist act or support of terrorist act can result in the death penalty.
SECTION 421 increases penalties for terrorist financing. This section states that any type of financial activity connected to terrorism will result to time in prison and $10-50,000 fines per violation.
SECTIONS 427 sets up asset forfeiture provisions for anyone engaging in terrorist activities. There are many other sections that I did not cover in the interest of time. The American people were shocked by the despotic nature of the first Patriot Act. The second Patriot Act dwarfs all police state legislation in modern world history.
What are you so spun up about? Really, there are very specfics in this article. Its more a piece of liberal propaganda rather than real news. Second, if you're not a criminal, what are you worried about? I think its fine the gov. creates a DNA database. It allows less room for slimy trial attorneys to manuver in. Also, I agree terroist and those that support them should face stiffer punishment....especially if they are a U.S. citizen. Retgarding taking indivuals from another country, that is called bringing criminals to justice. The Mossad did it for years and no one bitched...so, why would this be different.
If terrorist are willing to go to extreems to kill us, then we need go after them with the same "vigor".
1. The secretive tactics being used by the White House and Speaker Hastert to keep even the existence of this legislation secret would be more at home in Communist China than in the United States. The fact that Dick Cheney publicly managed the steamroller passage of the first Patriot Act, ensuring that no one was allowed to read it and publicly threatening members of Congress that if they didn't vote in favor of it that they would be blamed for the next terrorist attack, is by the White House's own definition terrorism. The move to clandestinely craft and then bully passage of any legislation by the Executive Branch is clearly an impeachable offense.
2. The second Patriot Act is a mirror image of powers that Julius Caesar and Adolf Hitler gave themselves. Whereas the First Patriot Act only gutted the First, Third, Fourth and Fifth Amendments, and seriously damaged the Seventh and the Tenth, the Second Patriot Act reorganizes the entire Federal government as well as many areas of state government under the dictatorial control of the Justice Department, the Office of Homeland Security and the FEMA NORTHCOM military command. The Domestic Security Enhancement Act 2003, also known as the Second Patriot Act is by its very structure the definition of dictatorship.
I challenge all Americans to study the new Patriot Act and to compare it to the Constitution, Bill of Rights and Declaration of Independence. Ninety percent of the act has nothing to do with terrorism and is instead a giant Federal power-grab with tentacles reaching into every facet of our society. It strips American citizens of all of their rights and grants the government and its private agents total immunity. Here is a quick thumbnail sketch of just some of the draconian measures encapsulated within this tyrannical legislation:
SECTION 501 (Expatriation of Terrorists) expands the Bush administration's "enemy combatant" definition to all American citizens who "may" have violated any provision of Section 802 of the first Patriot Act. (Section 802 is the new definition of domestic terrorism, and the definition is "any action that endangers human life that is a violation of any Federal or State law.") Section 501 of the second Patriot Act directly connects to Section 125 of the same act. The Justice Department boldly claims that the incredibly broad Section 802 of the First USA Patriot Act isn't broad enough and that a new, unlimited definition of terrorism is needed.
Under Section 501 a US citizen engaging in lawful activities can be grabbed off the street and thrown into a van never to be seen again. The Justice Department states that they can do this because the person "had inferred from conduct" that they were not a US citizen. Remember Section 802 of the First USA Patriot Act states that any violation of Federal or State law can result in the "enemy combatant" terrorist designation.
SECTION 201 of the second Patriot Act makes it a criminal act for any member of the government or any citizen to release any information concerning the incarceration or whereabouts of detainees. It also states that law enforcement does not even have to tell the press who they have arrested and they never have to release the names.
SECTION 301 and 306 (Terrorist Identification Database) set up a national database of "suspected terrorists" and radically expand the database to include anyone associated with suspected terrorist groups and anyone involved in crimes or having supported any group designated as "terrorist." These sections also set up a national DNA database for anyone on probation or who has been on probation for any crime, and orders State governments to collect the DNA for the Federal government.
SECTION 312 gives immunity to law enforcement engaging in spying operations against the American people and would place substantial restrictions on court injunctions against Federal violations of civil rights across the board.
SECTION 101 will designate individual terrorists as foreign powers and again strip them of all rights under the "enemy combatant" designation.
SECTION 102 states clearly that any information gathering, regardless of whether or not those activities are illegal, can be considered to be clandestine intelligence activities for a foreign power. This makes news gathering illegal.
SECTION 103 allows the Federal government to use wartime martial law powers domestically and internationally without Congress declaring that a state of war exists.
SECTION 106 is bone-chilling in its straightforwardness. It states that broad general warrants by the secret FSIA court (a panel of secret judges set up in a star chamber system that convenes in an undisclosed location) granted under the first Patriot Act are not good enough. It states that government agents must be given immunity for carrying out searches with no prior court approval. This section throws out the entire Fourth Amendment against unreasonable searches and seizures.
SECTION 109 allows secret star chamber courts to issue contempt charges against any individual or corporation who refuses to incriminate themselves or others. This sections annihilate the last vestiges of the Fifth Amendment.
SECTION 110 restates that key police state clauses in the first Patriot Act were not sunsetted and removes the five year sunset clause from other subsections of the first Patriot Act. After all, the media has told us: "This is the New America. Get used to it. This is forever."
SECTION 111 expands the definition of the "enemy combatant" designation.
SECTION 122 restates the government's newly announced power of "surveillance without a court order."
SECTION 123 restates that the government no longer needs warrants and that the investigations can be a giant dragnet-style sweep described in press reports about the Total Information Awareness Network. One passage reads, "thus the focus of domestic surveillance may be less precise than that directed against more conventional types of crime."
*Note: Over and over again, in subsection after subsection, the second Patriot Act states that its new Soviet-type powers will be used to fight international terrorism, domestic terrorism and other types of crimes. Of course the government has already announced in Section 802 of the first USA Patriot act that any crime is considered domestic terrorism.
SECTION 126 grants the government the right to mine the entire spectrum of public and private sector information from bank records to educational and medical records. This is the enacting law to allow ECHELON and the Total Information Awareness Network to break down any and all walls of privacy. The government states that they must look at everything to "determine" if individuals or groups might have a connection to terrorist groups. As you can now see, you are guilty until proven innocent.
SECTION 127 allows the government to takeover coroners' and medical examiners' operations whenever they see fit. See how this is like Bill Clinton's special medical examiner he had in Arkansas that ruled that people had committed suicide when their arms and legs had been cut off.
SECTION 128 allows the Federal government to place gag orders on Federal and State Grand Juries and to take over the proceedings. It also disallows individuals or organizations to even try to quash a Federal subpoena. So now defending yourself will be a terrorist action.
SECTION 129 destroys any remaining whistle blower protection for Federal agents.
SECTION 202 allows corporations to keep secret their activities with toxic biological, chemical or radiological materials.
SECTION 205 allows top Federal officials to keep all their financial dealings secret, and anyone investigating them can be considered a terrorist. This should be very useful for Dick Cheney to stop anyone investigating Haliburton.
SECTION 303 sets up national DNA database of suspected terrorists. The database will also be used to "stop other unlawful activities." It will share the information with state, local and foreign agencies for the same purposes.
SECTION 311 federalizes your local police department in the area of information sharing.
SECTION 313 provides liability protection for businesses, especially big businesses that spy on their customers for Homeland Security, violating their privacy agreements. It goes on to say that these are all preventative measures - has anyone seen Minority Report? This is the access hub for the Total Information Awareness Network.
SECTION 321 authorizes foreign governments to spy on the American people and to share information with foreign governments.
SECTION 322 removes Congress from the extradition process and allows officers of the Homeland Security complex to extradite American citizens anywhere they wish. It also allows Homeland Security to secretly take individuals out of foreign countries.
SECTION 402 is titled "Providing Material Support to Terrorism." The section reads that there is no requirement to show that the individual even had the intent to aid terrorists.
SECTION 403 expands the definition of weapons of mass destruction to include any activity that affects interstate or foreign commerce.
SECTION 404 makes it a crime for a terrorist or "other criminals" to use encryption in the commission of a crime.
SECTION 408 creates "lifetime parole" (basically, slavery) for a whole host of crimes.
SECTION 410 creates no statute of limitations for anyone that engages in terrorist actions or supports terrorists. Remember: any crime is now considered terrorism under the first Patriot Act.
SECTION 411 expands crimes that are punishable by death. Again, they point to Section 802 of the first Patriot Act and state that any terrorist act or support of terrorist act can result in the death penalty.
SECTION 421 increases penalties for terrorist financing. This section states that any type of financial activity connected to terrorism will result to time in prison and $10-50,000 fines per violation.
SECTIONS 427 sets up asset forfeiture provisions for anyone engaging in terrorist activities. There are many other sections that I did not cover in the interest of time. The American people were shocked by the despotic nature of the first Patriot Act. The second Patriot Act dwarfs all police state legislation in modern world history.
What are you so spun up about? Really, there are very specfics in this article. Its more a piece of liberal propaganda rather than real news. Second, if you're not a criminal, what are you worried about? I think its fine the gov. creates a DNA database. It allows less room for slimy trial attorneys to manuver in. Also, I agree terroist and those that support them should face stiffer punishment....especially if they are a U.S. citizen. Retgarding taking indivuals from another country, that is called bringing criminals to justice. The Mossad did it for years and no one bitched...so, why would this be different.
If terrorist are willing to go to extreems to kill us, then we need go after them with the same "vigor".
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From: Houston, TX
Originally Posted by tenblade2001,Nov 26 2004, 03:47 PM
Retgarding taking indivuals from another country, that is called bringing criminals to justice. The Mossad did it for years and no one bitched...so, why would this be different.
(1) You are in Amsterdam, sitting in a local coffee house and smoking a joint. Pefectly legal in Holland. Upon your return to the US you are given a drug test at immigration and are arrested/prosecuted for drug use.
(2) Under German law, denying the holocaust is a criminal offense. Under US law, it is covered and protected by the First Amendment. You are in Wasngton DC and proclaim that Auschwitz never existed and that it is just an invention of the Jews. The following night German police raids your house, sweeps you out of the country and puts you on trial in Berlin.
(3) A Chinese activist speaks out against the Chinese government at a political rally in Seattle. Next time you see him again, he is tried for treason or some other made-up charge in Beijing.
(4) Feel free to develop your own scenario about Russia, Iran or North Korea operating in the US to repatriate their dissidents. Or for that matter, why not just save the money and carry out the "sentence" in the US?
Etc. I'll even give you another real-world case that took place about ten years ago or so. There was a US soldier stationed in West Germany who spied for East Germany. At some pointin time he defected to the East, received a new idenityt and an East German passport and settled in East Berlin. After reunification, he also automatically received a (West) German passport. So now here we have a German citizen, living in Germany, who committed a crime in Germany. The CIA abducted him and shipped him to the US to stand trial. Quite frankly, I have a major problem with that. He should have put on trial in Germany, or there should have been a proper extradition hearing.
I've said it many times before: "Might does not make right." Just because you can does not mean you should. International laws have to apply for everyone; selective application just lowers the faith in the system. That is true for people as much as for countries.
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Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 9,280
Likes: 1
From: knoxville, TN
Originally Posted by Ulrich,Nov 28 2004, 10:55 AM
What most people don't realize is that not all countries have the same laws and consider the same acts criminal offenses. Which of the following scenarios are okay with you?
(1) You are in Amsterdam, sitting in a local coffee house and smoking a joint. Pefectly legal in Holland. Upon your return to the US you are given a drug test at immigration and are arrested/prosecuted for drug use.
(2) Under German law, denying the holocaust is a criminal offense. Under US law, it is covered and protected by the First Amendment. You are in Wasngton DC and proclaim that Auschwitz never existed and that it is just an invention of the Jews. The following night German police raids your house, sweeps you out of the country and puts you on trial in Berlin.
(3) A Chinese activist speaks out against the Chinese government at a political rally in Seattle. Next time you see him again, he is tried for treason or some other made-up charge in Beijing.
(4) Feel free to develop your own scenario about Russia, Iran or North Korea operating in the US to repatriate their dissidents. Or for that matter, why not just save the money and carry out the "sentence" in the US?
Etc. I'll even give you another real-world case that took place about ten years ago or so. There was a US soldier stationed in West Germany who spied for East Germany. At some pointin time he defected to the East, received a new idenityt and an East German passport and settled in East Berlin. After reunification, he also automatically received a (West) German passport. So now here we have a German citizen, living in Germany, who committed a crime in Germany. The CIA abducted him and shipped him to the US to stand trial. Quite frankly, I have a major problem with that. He should have put on trial in Germany, or there should have been a proper extradition hearing.
I've said it many times before: "Might does not make right." Just because you can does not mean you should. International laws have to apply for everyone; selective application just lowers the faith in the system. That is true for people as much as for countries.
(1) You are in Amsterdam, sitting in a local coffee house and smoking a joint. Pefectly legal in Holland. Upon your return to the US you are given a drug test at immigration and are arrested/prosecuted for drug use.
(2) Under German law, denying the holocaust is a criminal offense. Under US law, it is covered and protected by the First Amendment. You are in Wasngton DC and proclaim that Auschwitz never existed and that it is just an invention of the Jews. The following night German police raids your house, sweeps you out of the country and puts you on trial in Berlin.
(3) A Chinese activist speaks out against the Chinese government at a political rally in Seattle. Next time you see him again, he is tried for treason or some other made-up charge in Beijing.
(4) Feel free to develop your own scenario about Russia, Iran or North Korea operating in the US to repatriate their dissidents. Or for that matter, why not just save the money and carry out the "sentence" in the US?
Etc. I'll even give you another real-world case that took place about ten years ago or so. There was a US soldier stationed in West Germany who spied for East Germany. At some pointin time he defected to the East, received a new idenityt and an East German passport and settled in East Berlin. After reunification, he also automatically received a (West) German passport. So now here we have a German citizen, living in Germany, who committed a crime in Germany. The CIA abducted him and shipped him to the US to stand trial. Quite frankly, I have a major problem with that. He should have put on trial in Germany, or there should have been a proper extradition hearing.
I've said it many times before: "Might does not make right." Just because you can does not mean you should. International laws have to apply for everyone; selective application just lowers the faith in the system. That is true for people as much as for countries.
Now, regarding your example of the former soldier that defected. IMO, the U.S gov. had every right to seize him and bring him here for trial. When he committed the crime, treason, he was a U.S citizen. Furthermore, the crime he committed was against the U.S. In short, we did nothing wrong and IMO, our actions were perfectly legit. Again, I will point to the Mossad and their abductions of Nazi criminals...sometimes 20-30yrs after the fact. I say, let the punishment fit the crime. If you're a terrorist and responsible for the death of inoccent people, you forfeit your rights....plain and simple.
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From: Houston, TX
Who was it that said "One man's rebel is another man's freedom fighter." ???
How about if Nelson Mandela had been living in exile in the US in the 70s and the South African government had abducted him for a trial?
And it's not comparing apples and oranges. Law and Justice should be absolutes if people are to have faith in the system. If you agree that kidnapping is wrong, why should state-sponsored kidnapping be legit?
In my real-world example, espionage is a crime under German law as well. The ex-G.I. would/should have been either put on trial in Germany or there should have been an extradition request. The way the CIA proceeded was a direct attack on the soverignty of another state, and a friendly one at that. If that's the way you treat your friends, then... Oh nevermind. I guess we've seen that, too.
Address my example No. 2, please. Are you willing to give up your right to due process to make the world a "safer place"?
As Benjamin Franklin said, "The man who trades freedom for security does not deserve nor will he ever receive either."
How about if Nelson Mandela had been living in exile in the US in the 70s and the South African government had abducted him for a trial?
And it's not comparing apples and oranges. Law and Justice should be absolutes if people are to have faith in the system. If you agree that kidnapping is wrong, why should state-sponsored kidnapping be legit?
In my real-world example, espionage is a crime under German law as well. The ex-G.I. would/should have been either put on trial in Germany or there should have been an extradition request. The way the CIA proceeded was a direct attack on the soverignty of another state, and a friendly one at that. If that's the way you treat your friends, then... Oh nevermind. I guess we've seen that, too.
Address my example No. 2, please. Are you willing to give up your right to due process to make the world a "safer place"?
As Benjamin Franklin said, "The man who trades freedom for security does not deserve nor will he ever receive either."
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Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 9,280
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From: knoxville, TN
What you are failing to recognize is the presence or absence of violence. If someone (a person or organization not a legit army) uses violence and TARGETS innocents, then they should be deemed an enemy of state. Said state should be able to use any means they see fit to bring the person to justice...their justice.
For example, lets say we found Osama Bin Laden in Germany. Rather than arrest him there and put him on trial there (where the death penality is not applicable...I don't know if that is true, but let's assume that it is) I would support, 100%, our CIA seizing him and bringing him to the U.S to face trial. The crime was committed against Americans and it should be our justice system that he answers to. This is not an attack on the other countries' sovereignty. We are not seizing their citizens nor seizing a citizen that sought political asylum. We would be seizing a person that committed a VIOLENT crime against U.S. citizens.
So, I assume that you believe the Mossad and Israli gov were wrong for seizing war criminals?
For example, lets say we found Osama Bin Laden in Germany. Rather than arrest him there and put him on trial there (where the death penality is not applicable...I don't know if that is true, but let's assume that it is) I would support, 100%, our CIA seizing him and bringing him to the U.S to face trial. The crime was committed against Americans and it should be our justice system that he answers to. This is not an attack on the other countries' sovereignty. We are not seizing their citizens nor seizing a citizen that sought political asylum. We would be seizing a person that committed a VIOLENT crime against U.S. citizens.
So, I assume that you believe the Mossad and Israli gov were wrong for seizing war criminals?
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From: Houston, TX
I have a problem with that process, yes.
But you are doging my questions. What about my original scenario 2, or what about my Nelson Mandela scenario? Arguably the ANC at the time was a violent organization?
How would you react if another country started sweeping up people in the US? And would it make any difference to you if only foreigners were concerned or US citizens as well? How about naturalized citizens? How about someone from a third-country (let's say a Spaniard kidnapped in the US by Chile or Argentina)?
But you are doging my questions. What about my original scenario 2, or what about my Nelson Mandela scenario? Arguably the ANC at the time was a violent organization?
How would you react if another country started sweeping up people in the US? And would it make any difference to you if only foreigners were concerned or US citizens as well? How about naturalized citizens? How about someone from a third-country (let's say a Spaniard kidnapped in the US by Chile or Argentina)?
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From: knoxville, TN
I think I have answered the question. If a person, U.S. citizen or otherwise, TARGETS another countries civilians, then the country that suffered that transgression has the right to seize that person and prosecute them according to their laws.
Why is that so hard to comprehend? By stating that position, I've already answered your scenarios.
"2) Under German law, denying the holocaust is a criminal offense. Under US law, it is covered and protected by the First Amendment. You are in Wasngton DC and proclaim that Auschwitz never existed and that it is just an invention of the Jews. The following night German police raids your house, sweeps you out of the country and puts you on trial in Berlin."
-no civilian was harmed, so the country has no right to go after that person.
Now, try this out...
An American born Palistinian goes to the West Bank and joins Hamas. He participates in a bombing that kills 10 Israli citizens. What do you think should happen to him? IMO, it should be the Israli government that prosecutes him, not the U.S.
Speaking of doging question, do you feel the Israli gov and the Mossad were wrong for going after Nazi war criminals?? I'd like an answer to that. If not, then what makes that situation different? If yes, why? The committed horrific acts and justice needed to be served.
Why is that so hard to comprehend? By stating that position, I've already answered your scenarios.
"2) Under German law, denying the holocaust is a criminal offense. Under US law, it is covered and protected by the First Amendment. You are in Wasngton DC and proclaim that Auschwitz never existed and that it is just an invention of the Jews. The following night German police raids your house, sweeps you out of the country and puts you on trial in Berlin."
-no civilian was harmed, so the country has no right to go after that person.
Now, try this out...
An American born Palistinian goes to the West Bank and joins Hamas. He participates in a bombing that kills 10 Israli citizens. What do you think should happen to him? IMO, it should be the Israli government that prosecutes him, not the U.S.
Speaking of doging question, do you feel the Israli gov and the Mossad were wrong for going after Nazi war criminals?? I'd like an answer to that. If not, then what makes that situation different? If yes, why? The committed horrific acts and justice needed to be served.
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 33,144
Likes: 1,630
From: Randolph, NJ
Steve,
Am I understanding you correctly. Are you suggesting that one country has the right to violate the sovereignty of another to kidnap an accused criminal in order to return that accused criminal to the kidnapper's country for trial and possible punishment? Are you suggesting that it is proper to bypass the extradition process by the use of force?
For example, are you saying that someone like Fidel Castro has the right to send his agents to the United States to kidnap a person who has been granted political asylum in order to bring that person back to Cuba for trial and punishment? (Assume the person is accused of a violent crime, real or not).
Also, my memory of the Nazi war criminals brought to justice is that they were extradited, not kidnapped. I might be wrong in some cases, but that is what I remember.
Am I understanding you correctly. Are you suggesting that one country has the right to violate the sovereignty of another to kidnap an accused criminal in order to return that accused criminal to the kidnapper's country for trial and possible punishment? Are you suggesting that it is proper to bypass the extradition process by the use of force?
For example, are you saying that someone like Fidel Castro has the right to send his agents to the United States to kidnap a person who has been granted political asylum in order to bring that person back to Cuba for trial and punishment? (Assume the person is accused of a violent crime, real or not).
Also, my memory of the Nazi war criminals brought to justice is that they were extradited, not kidnapped. I might be wrong in some cases, but that is what I remember.