White-Only Hobbies Such As Sports Cars
10-19-2003, 07:04 AM
#21
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Concert attendance (and therefore perceived musical interest) may have much to do with the venue and the means of publicity.
In the past year or so, we've attended local concerts by Sweet Honey in the Rock and the Moses Hogan Singers. Both are (were, as Moses Hogan died shortly after the concert) outstanding African-American music groups. The concert attendees were overwhelmingly white, middle-aged, middle class. If I extrapolated "interest" from attendees, the conclusion would be obvious. However, the concerts were held at a denomination-affiliated, overwhelmingly white college on the suburban fringe of town. Publicity was only through mainstream media and those attuned to the college's event schedule. Perhaps a different conclusion is obvious.
It has been interesting to learn of the communication and media networks in our community that are entirely separate from the white majority. Our worlds sometimes overlap less than we might think.
In the past year or so, we've attended local concerts by Sweet Honey in the Rock and the Moses Hogan Singers. Both are (were, as Moses Hogan died shortly after the concert) outstanding African-American music groups. The concert attendees were overwhelmingly white, middle-aged, middle class. If I extrapolated "interest" from attendees, the conclusion would be obvious. However, the concerts were held at a denomination-affiliated, overwhelmingly white college on the suburban fringe of town. Publicity was only through mainstream media and those attuned to the college's event schedule. Perhaps a different conclusion is obvious.
It has been interesting to learn of the communication and media networks in our community that are entirely separate from the white majority. Our worlds sometimes overlap less than we might think.
10-19-2003, 07:17 AM
#22
The tone of the discussion in this thread has remained civil and on a high level. Thank you to everyone.
Lets continue to explore and learn.
Lets continue to explore and learn.
10-19-2003, 07:20 AM
#23
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That's a very interesting thread. and one that I'm constantly aware of.
I think Legal Bill with the quote from Cornell West made a good point. Instead of trying to be color blind maybe we need to recognize the differences, "celebrate the differences" as it sometimes said.
And here is a puzzling observation: one of my black co-workers is mostly hanging out with the most un-PC guys at work. 2 of them make occasional statements that I consider insensitive at the least. Why does he like to hang out with these 2 guys. I've been pondering this and I think that's because WYSIWYG and less "correctness" is involved.
I think Legal Bill with the quote from Cornell West made a good point. Instead of trying to be color blind maybe we need to recognize the differences, "celebrate the differences" as it sometimes said.
And here is a puzzling observation: one of my black co-workers is mostly hanging out with the most un-PC guys at work. 2 of them make occasional statements that I consider insensitive at the least. Why does he like to hang out with these 2 guys. I've been pondering this and I think that's because WYSIWYG and less "correctness" is involved.
10-19-2003, 09:22 AM
#24
Originally posted by PokS2k
I think that one reason you only see "Whites" at the clubs and hobbies you and your wife participate in may have to do with the small non-white/non-hispanic population in Mesa.
I think that one reason you only see "Whites" at the clubs and hobbies you and your wife participate in may have to do with the small non-white/non-hispanic population in Mesa.
Here in the Delaware Valley, we have many Asian members and 1-2 black owners. Everyone has fun together. The Mid-Atlantic group also has a diverse group of owners.
10-19-2003, 09:27 AM
#25
[QUOTE]Originally posted by paS2K
10-19-2003, 10:40 AM
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Physical proximity amongst the diverse "groups" doesn't do anything by itself. In fact, it could potentially polarize the bigotry and hatred even further. It still comes down to individuals making smart decisions and be open-minded and second guess themselves from time to time, in case he/she is wrong.
10-19-2003, 03:06 PM
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This thread began as my complaint that many of the activities I've enjoyed over the years seem overly "white" for no obvious reason. I listed some of them, opined that "they would benefit from more diverse viewpoints....", and posed the question to the forum for insight. Obviously the overly-white audiences I perceive are no source of pleasure, but are the problem. Ralper correctly observes that the older the artform, the smaller the audience. But I'm still concerned about the composition of that audience, the %, the make-up of it.
We should probably concentrate more on sports cars here, but since my research methods have been questioned, especially as regards jazz, let me address that. My real expertise is only in EARLY jazz, that is ragtime and jazz prior to 1930. Since its beginning, many musicians have continued to play and compose in the original style, and do so to this day. New Orleans is a bit of an exception, because one can see/hear some players there who are Black, say, at Preservation Hall, but when traditional (early, original) jazz is played elsewhere it is by white musicians. This is not good.
I base these observations on 50 years of experience following the music all over America in concert. I also buy a lot of it recorded, but of course have no idea who else is ordering CDs., as no records are kept on such purchases. (They were 78s when I started buying jazz.) The city I live in today, Mesa, plays no role in anything here, as I have only been here 3yrs. It has 400,000 residents, 35% of which are Hispanic according to 2003 statistics, but that is not my window on the world. Sailor reminded us that the concert venue can influence the audience make-up, and I've certainly seen this happen many times, especially at the rarified air of University performances.
Traditional jazz and ragtime today is performed at large gatherings in large cities, openly advertised and attracting thousands of fans--almost all white. There are such jazz festivals every weekend all year all over the US, and I know this scene. Not only are the audiences white, but so are the bands. How do I know this? I know ALL the bands and musicians, some personally. This is a small culture, and people know one another. The one comment I hear regularly is " Gee, if we could only get a Black player...." Check the scene out in the Mississippi Rag.com.
I'm still not willing to write off America as hopelessly racist. We may have been in the past, but today people who have lives are not running around hating everybody else. The reports from ralper and pas2K about participation are encouraging regarding cars. Maybe we're not going to implode as a nation tomorrow.
We should probably concentrate more on sports cars here, but since my research methods have been questioned, especially as regards jazz, let me address that. My real expertise is only in EARLY jazz, that is ragtime and jazz prior to 1930. Since its beginning, many musicians have continued to play and compose in the original style, and do so to this day. New Orleans is a bit of an exception, because one can see/hear some players there who are Black, say, at Preservation Hall, but when traditional (early, original) jazz is played elsewhere it is by white musicians. This is not good.
I base these observations on 50 years of experience following the music all over America in concert. I also buy a lot of it recorded, but of course have no idea who else is ordering CDs., as no records are kept on such purchases. (They were 78s when I started buying jazz.) The city I live in today, Mesa, plays no role in anything here, as I have only been here 3yrs. It has 400,000 residents, 35% of which are Hispanic according to 2003 statistics, but that is not my window on the world. Sailor reminded us that the concert venue can influence the audience make-up, and I've certainly seen this happen many times, especially at the rarified air of University performances.
Traditional jazz and ragtime today is performed at large gatherings in large cities, openly advertised and attracting thousands of fans--almost all white. There are such jazz festivals every weekend all year all over the US, and I know this scene. Not only are the audiences white, but so are the bands. How do I know this? I know ALL the bands and musicians, some personally. This is a small culture, and people know one another. The one comment I hear regularly is " Gee, if we could only get a Black player...." Check the scene out in the Mississippi Rag.com.
I'm still not willing to write off America as hopelessly racist. We may have been in the past, but today people who have lives are not running around hating everybody else. The reports from ralper and pas2K about participation are encouraging regarding cars. Maybe we're not going to implode as a nation tomorrow.
10-19-2003, 03:24 PM
#28
Professor
I certainly do not know nearly so much as you do regarding music, and especially jazz, so I will yield to you.
As far as sportscars, and cars in general, I think a lot of the diversity we are seeing in our clubs is a direct result of the economy. Sportscars, and cars in general, have always been an expensive activity. As economic doors have opened to more people, more people have been able to enjoy this hobby. This is good and I hope it continues.
My hope is that 10 years from now, when we celebrate the 10th anniversary of the Vintage Forum, we will be able to look back and laugh. My hope is that in the near future this will no longer be an issue. That is the world I'd like to give my kids.
I certainly do not know nearly so much as you do regarding music, and especially jazz, so I will yield to you.
As far as sportscars, and cars in general, I think a lot of the diversity we are seeing in our clubs is a direct result of the economy. Sportscars, and cars in general, have always been an expensive activity. As economic doors have opened to more people, more people have been able to enjoy this hobby. This is good and I hope it continues.
My hope is that 10 years from now, when we celebrate the 10th anniversary of the Vintage Forum, we will be able to look back and laugh. My hope is that in the near future this will no longer be an issue. That is the world I'd like to give my kids.
