RolanTHUNDER

Hey guys

As we know, all countries outside Japan and the US never got AP2's - they're all AP1's with the addition of a face-lift. My question is: is anything in a face-lift AP1 like an AP2 (suspension changes/tweaks, steering response, etc) apart from the engine?
I drove a 2007 AP1 that revs to 9000 thanks to the original F20 and not an F22 but I couldn't help wondering if that's the only thing that makes it an AP1...

Mike RT4

All the revisions were carried over on all cars worldwide irrespective of AP1 or AP2, so that means DBW, VSA, suspension and ARB changes occured at the same year points for both the AP1 and AP2.

Chuck S

As Mike notes. There are some minor regional differences, of course, I've not seen cruise control in the UK car photos and while the '06 and later cars are all DBW there are three different ECUs as evidenced by three different versions of the Hondata FlashPRO that can be used to tune them to some very nice additional mid range torque and power by lowering VTEC and adjusting the other fuel settings.

Revving to 9000 is a feature, not a benefit. Just different. I doubt anyone drives in the 8400 to 9000 rpm range.

-- Chuck

RolanTHUNDER

Um, I DO DRIVE IN THE 8400 to 9000 range

I see what you mean though. as an S2K owner and enthusiast I definitely prefer the F20C over the 22. I love that higher redline. That's one of the best things about the car and what set it apart from the rest.
Do you have a DBW? How do you find the throttle response in comparison to cable?

RolanTHUNDER

Thanks for clarifying. Now the question is, how do you feel about the changes? Like suspension changed to a milder setting post 2003 AP1. Apparently that was to prevent twitchiness at the rear end. I have a supercharged AP1 but I've driven '04 and '07 face-lifts. Not enough to really feel the differences suspension changes made though. Just curious how other enthusiasts feel about it.

Mike RT4

My car is the best model (IMO ) as it is a facelift (MY2005) AP1, which means it has the best throttle response (cable), no stupid VSA to cause issues (it hasn't got the power to pull the skin off a rice(r) pudding anyway, so God knows why Honda felt it needed this LOL), no oil consumption / valve-train issues that plagued the early pre-facelift cars, nor the engine woes of the 2007 cars and the best engine (I'm talking from an engineering point of view, as it has far superior design compared to the F22) - better rod angle, better piston speed when comparing like for like rpm and that 9k limit us AP1 owners love (waiting for the AP2 onslaught ).

I picked this model year after nearly 6 months of research before I dipped my toe into S2000 ownership. However, once I had it a few months, I found the OEM suspension to be way to soft and "rolly-polly" (felt like door mirrors were going to scrape on high-speed cornering at the track LOL ). I corrected that with Ohlins 10k/10k (plus some other chassis mods) and eradicated understeer with 245/40x17 AD08s all round. The car now rotates beautifully and handles just how I like it.

I haven't driven an early pre-facelift car, which have much stiffer spring and ARB rates (plus the poor rear end geometry to prevent dive that gives the rear twitchiness), but with the Ohlins, I am running significantly higher spring rates than even the CR model anyway, so I don't think a standard car would be able to compare, as the DFVs offer a more than acceptable ride / handling compromise, even with the stiffer rear spring rates.

What I do love about the S2000 platform is that as good as the car is out of the "box", there are still so many things that can be done (for ANY model year) to improve the car - which is what I love doing, being a serial modifier . This means I can enjoy making these evolutionary steps until I achieve the "perfect" (for me) S2000 .

(And not being content with upsetting the AP2 owners with my comments, I would just like to add that forced induction on an S2000 is for point and squirt homos (all tongue in cheek, so don't get your panties in a bunch) )

Chuck S

9000 rpm is marketing. And a way to advertise peak horsepower since that is merely a mathematical formula based on torque and engine rpm. I have no doubt Honda did this for marketing purposes as Ford is doing with the flat crank Mustangs. No one drives at rpms above 8400 (where my rev limiter activates) -- shifting at higher rpms is just momentary. 85 mph cruise is in the 4200 range.

An advantage we have today with these cars is the choices of model years -- can't buy a new one, they're all used. Pick the "best" model year. My research into this car showed me that the 2006 and later cars were easy to tune without a dyno and aftermarket ECU and they benefited from the suspension, wheel, and tire changes Honda made thru the life of the car. That was my conclusion, others reached different ones. The suspension parts are all on Ebay and you can mix and match several dozen combinations at home in your garage. A buddy bought a lowered '02 and we found a complete set of OEM springs at a reasonable price and he fitted them much to the improvement of the car.

I fail to notice any DBW issues. I drove my Ford Expedition for a couple of years before I found out by accident there was no throttle cable directly to the engine. Worked just fine. I'm sure, but I've not checked, that my newer cars are all DBW. I don't notice anything with them either.

Massive amounts of my opinion here of course.

-- Chuck

Mike RT4

Chuck,
That is because you are old . Us "youngsters" change gear when we see the red double flash at the end of the rev counter .

Chuck S

I'm too busy watching the road to watch the tach. Took me a while to realize it flashed the red section near the top of the range. Red line shift alarm beeper is a godsend as the rev limiter activates at 8400 rpm and the rpms built fast in the lower gears after a tune.

AP1 9000 rpm red line does give 3000 rpm of VTEC vs 2400 for the AP2 engines. But my AP2 3600 rpm VTEC gives me 4800 rpm of VTEC.

-- Chuck

RolanTHUNDER

Oi! I have an FI S2000 mind you, it's awesome so I can understand why you may be jealous

What "woes" did the 2007 engines have?? First I hear of this.

Good choice you made going Ohlins DFV. Well done. Top stuff indeed. Coupled with AD08's, m m m sounds super grippy. But, exaggerate much, lol? All S2000's are rigid as those rules you just can't break and that makes them handle sooooo well. I just love the rigidity and chassis, steering, engine response so much. Fair enough I haven't tracked her yet and you sound like you've done it many times so I am not sure how the OEM suspension would feel in an all out track setting but definitely not "mirrors gonna scrape the road while cornering" haha :P
I've heard about the "design stress" (Ichishima-san's words) on early AP1's that prevented nose dive. Nice but the twitch is more pronounced. Apparently after they dialed it back a bit and softened up the rear it allowed you to accelerate earlier thru a corner getting faster exit speed. In fact, I prefer softer rear end and stiffer front end on FR's. If I were to go coil overs I'd opt for 8F/6R spring rates then again after experiencing that and not being happy I'd go 8 square or 10 like you.