Tipping point
10-13-2017, 02:22 AM
#1
Banned
Thread Starter
Tipping point
Bit boring round here recently so thought we might chat about something I've been trying to get my head around.
It's probably accepted that classic car prices will crash, along with everything else at some point and that discussion has been done to death.
What I'm struggling with is that classics (for which read old cars) are now so much more expensive that they have generally ceased being fun indulgences or even quirky everyday transport.
Only four or five years back you could pick up lots of interesting old stuff for a couple of grand. E.g XJS, E30 Beemer. In the middle - Ferrari 355 for £45K. At the higher end, something I like, such as the Merc SLS, was available at £90K-£100K. I very nearly bought a 911 Targa for £12K only three or four years back. Now it would probably be two or three times that.
So I look at an SLS and they're now £150K-£175K+. This for a six or seven year old car mind. Now at the same time I can buy this one year old car for £95K. A better car in every respect:
Mercedes-Benz AMG GT S | Surrey Near London Hampshire Sussex | Bramley Motor Cars
If we go Porsche it's even sillier. New models, even nicely specced, look far better value to me than the older stuff.
My point is, and I never thought it would happen, is that I think I'm done with buying any more older cars, unless there's a crash.
And bizarrely, I'm looking at new ones!
It's probably accepted that classic car prices will crash, along with everything else at some point and that discussion has been done to death.
What I'm struggling with is that classics (for which read old cars) are now so much more expensive that they have generally ceased being fun indulgences or even quirky everyday transport.
Only four or five years back you could pick up lots of interesting old stuff for a couple of grand. E.g XJS, E30 Beemer. In the middle - Ferrari 355 for £45K. At the higher end, something I like, such as the Merc SLS, was available at £90K-£100K. I very nearly bought a 911 Targa for £12K only three or four years back. Now it would probably be two or three times that.
So I look at an SLS and they're now £150K-£175K+. This for a six or seven year old car mind. Now at the same time I can buy this one year old car for £95K. A better car in every respect:
Mercedes-Benz AMG GT S | Surrey Near London Hampshire Sussex | Bramley Motor Cars
If we go Porsche it's even sillier. New models, even nicely specced, look far better value to me than the older stuff.
My point is, and I never thought it would happen, is that I think I'm done with buying any more older cars, unless there's a crash.
And bizarrely, I'm looking at new ones!
10-13-2017, 04:02 AM
#2
UK Moderator
I think a lot of the silliness relates to older cars having old-fashioned things on them like manual gearboxes, being normally aspirated, hydraulic rather than electric power steering, (and air cooled rather than water cooled engines).
In your Mercedes example, the SLS is NA, not turbo. One could argue the turbo is better [adenoids] because it produces more torques throughout the rev range [/adenoids] but in the mind of the classic buyer, the NA and gullwing doors make it more "special" and thus worth more - I dunno?
Perhaps it's a question of the subjective versus the objective.
An S2000 and an E-Type Jag are pretty similar in terms of performance, layout and so on, but I expect an E-Type will cost a lot more even though the S2000 will ride better, be safer, have better electrics and heater, be more reliable and be much, much faster going round corners.
The S2000 is a much better car, but I expect the prices of the two are somewhat different!
In your Mercedes example, the SLS is NA, not turbo. One could argue the turbo is better [adenoids] because it produces more torques throughout the rev range [/adenoids] but in the mind of the classic buyer, the NA and gullwing doors make it more "special" and thus worth more - I dunno?
Perhaps it's a question of the subjective versus the objective.
An S2000 and an E-Type Jag are pretty similar in terms of performance, layout and so on, but I expect an E-Type will cost a lot more even though the S2000 will ride better, be safer, have better electrics and heater, be more reliable and be much, much faster going round corners.
The S2000 is a much better car, but I expect the prices of the two are somewhat different!
10-13-2017, 04:45 AM
#3
It's all a matter or personal choice of course, but there are two main things which put me off most new(ish) cars - the weight (literal and metaphorical) of technology piled on board in the name of safety and planet saving, and, the fairly sure bet than in most instances they will depreciate.
10-13-2017, 05:09 AM
#4
This is a quandary I find myself thinking about a lot. On the one hand, the cars I really lust after are a bit older (circa 1995-2005.) The problem is the stuff I'm interested in, mainly an S15 Silvia Spec R or a Lancer Evo 5 are so ridiculously over-priced that it's not worth doing. Especially when you have to have a float in place to remedy any age related issues with those cars.
Meanwhile, newer cars just don't have the same effervescent nature, but the biggest issue being the myriad of of technology and high kerbweight of newer cars. My other concern is the throwaway nature of modern cars as well, they seem to be designed around the methodology of use for 3/4 years then bin em off. That and the technology as well I can see causing headaches further down the road.
It's a catch 22 from my point of view. Anything used that's a bit older is stupidly expensive due to scene tax/investment bro's and anything newer is now so expensive that the only option is buying a car on the never never, which I flatly refuse to do.
Thankfully, I bought the S2000 at the right time as it wasn't terribly expensive. If I was in the market now, I would imagine my S when I bought it would probably be at least 15/16k now. Despite how good the S is, I would really wonder if a 10 year old car is worth that sort of cash.
Meanwhile, newer cars just don't have the same effervescent nature, but the biggest issue being the myriad of of technology and high kerbweight of newer cars. My other concern is the throwaway nature of modern cars as well, they seem to be designed around the methodology of use for 3/4 years then bin em off. That and the technology as well I can see causing headaches further down the road.
It's a catch 22 from my point of view. Anything used that's a bit older is stupidly expensive due to scene tax/investment bro's and anything newer is now so expensive that the only option is buying a car on the never never, which I flatly refuse to do.
Thankfully, I bought the S2000 at the right time as it wasn't terribly expensive. If I was in the market now, I would imagine my S when I bought it would probably be at least 15/16k now. Despite how good the S is, I would really wonder if a 10 year old car is worth that sort of cash.
10-13-2017, 06:24 AM
#5
Well, there are crash signals everywhere, it's on time according to the wave theorists. So expect another quantum of quantitative easing to blow up hyperinflation again...so depreciation on classics might not be an issue. Or it may be...
Having said that, looking through the classifieds at any truly interesting (and quite dreadful stuff like Escrotes), my invariable price-reaction is "oh, fuck right off!"
Yes, a newer car makes far more sense now than any of this classic stuff.
But I still find that with most modern stuff being very uninspiring (as well as unreliable) and with miserable road conditions in the South East, I'll probably just end up renting some new old shit under warranty, at some stage in the future. Just like everyone else does.
But since all of our stuff is Japanese and fairly old-skool in design, I'm not foreseeing that necessity for the foreseeable...
Plus it's been bought so long ago, price doesn't really enter into it any more, with only really the 86 being increasingly worthless. Yet it might as well be a brand new car, ironically.
Having said that, looking through the classifieds at any truly interesting (and quite dreadful stuff like Escrotes), my invariable price-reaction is "oh, fuck right off!"
Yes, a newer car makes far more sense now than any of this classic stuff.
But I still find that with most modern stuff being very uninspiring (as well as unreliable) and with miserable road conditions in the South East, I'll probably just end up renting some new old shit under warranty, at some stage in the future. Just like everyone else does.
But since all of our stuff is Japanese and fairly old-skool in design, I'm not foreseeing that necessity for the foreseeable...
Plus it's been bought so long ago, price doesn't really enter into it any more, with only really the 86 being increasingly worthless. Yet it might as well be a brand new car, ironically.
10-13-2017, 07:07 AM
#6
Banned
Thread Starter
It's all a matter or personal choice of course, but there are two main things which put me off most new(ish) cars - the weight (literal and metaphorical) of technology piled on board in the name of safety and planet saving, and, the fairly sure bet than in most instances they will depreciate.
but not in the case of Porsche for one
just look at the price of a new Cayman/Boxster compared to a five year old 911
I hadn't driven the new Cayman until recently but take it from me that it is an exceptional drive
and this guff about needing to drive it at ludicrous speeds to enjoy it is, well, guff
10-13-2017, 07:15 AM
#7
in most cases I agree Ian
but not in the case of Porsche for one
just look at the price of a new Cayman/Boxster compared to a five year old 911
I hadn't driven the new Cayman until recently but take it from me that it is an exceptional drive
and this guff about needing to drive it at ludicrous speeds to enjoys it is, well, guff
but not in the case of Porsche for one
just look at the price of a new Cayman/Boxster compared to a five year old 911
I hadn't driven the new Cayman until recently but take it from me that it is an exceptional drive
and this guff about needing to drive it at ludicrous speeds to enjoys it is, well, guff
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10-13-2017, 07:58 AM
#9
Banned
Thread Starter
I don't begrudge anyone an increase in the value of their classic car any more than I would an increased house value
I'm really lamenting the loss of many 'old cars' to enthusiasts with no interest in depreciation or profit
The scene has become fashionable now which has meant that almost any old nail is accorded classic status together with dreamworld pricing
That's coupled with every knob you meet professing knowledge of cars and how much they're worth
I preferred it when it was just a hobby for people who liked to get their hands dirty or just enjoy running something they could never have afforded when new for a few months
Feels a bit like my hobby has been stolen by Philistines and ponces
Nick - decent Panameras are not cheap. They are also frigging enormous. I would imagine a real pain to use as a daily if you had to do normal thinks like park or use narrow streets
I still want a vandal damaged Cayenne Turbo to Hammerite one day. I fancy that vile bronze colour they do. I reckon I could do it in half a day with a gloss roller. Should give a few detailers an embolism
I'm really lamenting the loss of many 'old cars' to enthusiasts with no interest in depreciation or profit
The scene has become fashionable now which has meant that almost any old nail is accorded classic status together with dreamworld pricing
That's coupled with every knob you meet professing knowledge of cars and how much they're worth
I preferred it when it was just a hobby for people who liked to get their hands dirty or just enjoy running something they could never have afforded when new for a few months
Feels a bit like my hobby has been stolen by Philistines and ponces
Nick - decent Panameras are not cheap. They are also frigging enormous. I would imagine a real pain to use as a daily if you had to do normal thinks like park or use narrow streets
I still want a vandal damaged Cayenne Turbo to Hammerite one day. I fancy that vile bronze colour they do. I reckon I could do it in half a day with a gloss roller. Should give a few detailers an embolism
10-13-2017, 09:49 AM
#10
Most cars are bloody enormous, Gad. I see it every time I try to squeeze the Leg End next to something D-segment, like a 3er or Mondeo. I remember when E30s were oddly small. It's one of the reasons I cannot really get excited about most cars any more. I'll probably end up looking like a real pauper in a Honda Urban EV or something.
I do like the idea of Hammeriteing something really knobby, like a Bentley or somesuch!
I do like the idea of Hammeriteing something really knobby, like a Bentley or somesuch!