commievid

If the ABS kicks in, it's either a case of the tyres not having enough desired grip to brake, or the brakes are overpowering the tyres for the given conditions.

The Dixcels are a straight swap, same size as the OEM brakes I believe? So technically, with everything else the same (tyres, brake fluid, road conditions, etc.) then the braking distance should be the same. The point of ever changing from OEM (which I think are perfectly fine for the road) is resistance to fade, meaning you can apply the brakes later and harder consistently with the Dixcels over a sustained period.

So in regards the original topic, it probably is placebo, but as the pads were down to 2mm, changing them with anything new would have led to an improvement, in the same way that changing tyres from 2mm tread would (after initial running in of course).

Montag

This 'Dixcel setup' seems awfully expensive if, as lovegroova claims, the same effect can be achieved by simply pressing more firmly on the brake pedal with the OEM setup. So much for 'Incredible Braking Power!'.

zebidi

Uprated discs and pads are awesome. I was surprised you hadn't roided the brakes up already until now.
Fade takes longer, pedal feel lasts longer, stop faster! WOOP!

surfer_crx

If I was suffering from fade I would change my pads and fluid.

If I was suffering with cracked of warped disks I would look for uprated disks that can handle/dissipate the extra heat.

If I wanted to reduce my braking distances I would start with better tyres.

lovegroova

I have Dixcels too. It's a matter of physics, the thing actually slowing you down is the tyres, so, as long as you are able to exceed the grip of the tyres (as Tim says, the ABS kicks in) your braking is maximised.

Spot on, the Dixcels (as well as other brands) let you use "maximum braking" more times than OEM will without fading.

See above.

As I've said 1,234,752 times, if I didn't do track days, I'd stick to OEM for road use, unless I lived at the top of a mountain pass.

Montag

OK, it's making more sense to my 90% art / 10% science brain now.

The Dixcel setup (or another uprated pad and disc combo) is great for the track because it's less prone to fade, which means you're likely to spend more time driving and less time sitting in the pits.

If you want to stop more quickly, ie. reduce your stopping distance, better/newer tyres will do this.

Is this correct?

PhilipGB

You see this debate all the time. People with upgraded brakes insisting they brake better, everyone else throwing the tyre argument back.

All I would add into the mix is tyre temperature. A more aggressive brake will put heat into the tyre quicker on initial braking, which will surely help as braking continues making it harder to lock the wheel and reducing the overall stopping distance?

Dembo

As long as you are able to exceed the grip of the tyres. But if you stand on the brakes and the ABS cuts in after 2 seconds, then that's 2 seconds of braking where you weren't at the limit of the tyres, and so the brake performance can make a difference to your stopping distance. And the faster you're going, the more resistance there is to the tyre locking up. In the warm and dry and on a smooth road surface, you're going to be hard pressed to get the ABS to do anything because you have too much grip, so you certainly gain by having more brake pad friction.

A trackday is slightly different as then it does become about managing the heat more than anything else. But you don't get to that point on the road.

I think what is a placebo is a lot of people make the mistake of only upgrading the front, which means the car dives forward more and is probably more likely to lock up the front wheels, and that makes it feel like more is happening when you press the pedal even though your stopping distance is probably longer. And the other thing is performance pads give you a more immediate response and more solid pedal, which again makes you feel like you have better brakes.

markforrester99

I think with brake pads you really need to have an idea of how much you are going to push the car. Yellow stuff was fine for me when i was having a spirited drive on a weekend but when i went on a trackday i found i suffered fade after 2 or 3 hard laps.

I have no doubt that the likes of dixcel and carbotech are a better brake product, they are expensive but the last thing you want when driving on track is an unpredictable brake pedal. With the yellowstuffs the amount of pressure required to stop the car changed constantly because the pads were overheating, one minutes i could go into the corner and have a nice hard bite and then the next corner im literally stamping on the pedal but getting less braking force. This is no good for having confidence on track.

I think my carbotech xp10 were £370 compared to my yellow stuffs of £180. Im yet to fit the pads but from what i've read and the general consensus of people i've spoke to i wont be having any problems again, even if my braking technique isnt perfect. This faith in their product maybe misplaced the next time i go on track but i hope it wont, plus if i have issues Ian at Carbotech UK is more than willing to answer any questions and gain feedback from the product.

If i was only doing road driving then i would be using yellowstuff pads, for the price they are a good pad.

DanBes2k

Wow this goes straight over my head lol. I can understand the principles in what people are saying, but I would never ever ever prefer having oem discs and pads over my dixcel set up. Never had fade with oem stuff but I can definately drive faster and with more confidence on the dixcels.

Iirc yellow stuff is EBC's highest performance track orientated pad, red stuff is more aimed at fast road, had them on my dc2 and never again, pedal felt like custard and the rears crumbled into pieces after about 6 months.