How *should* the brake pedal feel?
07-04-2016, 05:59 AM
#11
Registered User
Thread Starter
Doing it with my hand shows how easy it is to push in. I tried to show slack movement and movement after slack. Could different pads really make much difference? Can pads be squishy? I had these same redstuff pads on my first s2000 which I liked the brake feel of. That might have been because of the 'break-in' layer that they put on though to speed up the break-in process.
I don't know what the ratio is, but I'm guessing an inch of pedal movement is bearly noticeable with the piston movement, so maybe it is squashy pads causing it.
I'd hate to get rid of my nearly new pads (5000 miles max) and still have the problem though. I've already done that with my tyres (that did exactly what I wanted though).
I don't know what the ratio is, but I'm guessing an inch of pedal movement is bearly noticeable with the piston movement, so maybe it is squashy pads causing it.
I'd hate to get rid of my nearly new pads (5000 miles max) and still have the problem though. I've already done that with my tyres (that did exactly what I wanted though).
07-04-2016, 06:13 AM
#12
From what you are describing it does sound like a leaking master cylinder (split seal inside). However, you haven't mentioned what brake fluid you are using or whether you have managed to get all the old fluid out during the previous bleeds (I'm guessing you probably have, but just wanted to eliminate all possibilities).
I don't think the pads are at fault (despite the fact I would't fit EBC to my lawn-mower
), as that is just likely to give you poor "feel" rather than a dodgy peddle.
I don't think the pads are at fault (despite the fact I would't fit EBC to my lawn-mower
), as that is just likely to give you poor "feel" rather than a dodgy peddle.
07-04-2016, 06:28 AM
#13
Pads do make a world of difference, and I remember red stuff feeling quite spongy. It'll never feel solid; there's always some give in the system, and as said the S2000 (and the GT86 thankfully) doesn't have that ridiculous over-assistance that plagues a lot of modern cars. Your hand videos look like the normal movement at the top of the pedal to me.
I was convinced I had a leaking master cylinder but it was just air stuck in it (in the ABS I think). I did about 10 bleeds, got nowhere, then did a trackday with really terrible spongey fading brakes, did another bleed, and then it was fine and stayed that way.
I suggest you find somewhere safe and then do some heavy stops with the ABS cutting in. That could shift any air, though you may boil your fluid in the process. Emphasis on the "safe".
I was convinced I had a leaking master cylinder but it was just air stuck in it (in the ABS I think). I did about 10 bleeds, got nowhere, then did a trackday with really terrible spongey fading brakes, did another bleed, and then it was fine and stayed that way.
I suggest you find somewhere safe and then do some heavy stops with the ABS cutting in. That could shift any air, though you may boil your fluid in the process. Emphasis on the "safe".
07-04-2016, 07:33 AM
#14
Registered User
Ok. I've been out to do the test on the booster. According to the test, the booster is fine. I also took two videos to show how much the pedal moves. One with engine on, one with it off.
On top of that, with the engine on, I pushed the pedal as far it it would go (with my foot, not my hand as in the videos), and I DID reach the stopper. Either this is worse than before (as recent as last night), or I'm just being more sensitive to it now, but it was definitely the stopper. Because of that, I didn't bother taking off the pipe to the booster.
Engine off:
https://youtu.be/jW1VIbHQbN4
Engine on:
https://youtu.be/xf4don8ySBU
Looking at this, it actually does look pretty spongy. The only place there could be air is in the ABS module, if any. I've bled the car maybe 10 times, aggressively and softly. I've even taken off the calipers and twisted them about whilst bleeding to make sure any air bubbles aren't trapped.
There's no leaking outside of the master cylinder, but could an internal seal be damaged, causing this?
Should I give in and get a dealer to do a proper bleed where they run the abs pump using their computer? They can do that, right?
Thanks for everyone's help so far. I really appreciate it.
On top of that, with the engine on, I pushed the pedal as far it it would go (with my foot, not my hand as in the videos), and I DID reach the stopper. Either this is worse than before (as recent as last night), or I'm just being more sensitive to it now, but it was definitely the stopper. Because of that, I didn't bother taking off the pipe to the booster.
Engine off:
https://youtu.be/jW1VIbHQbN4
Engine on:
https://youtu.be/xf4don8ySBU
Looking at this, it actually does look pretty spongy. The only place there could be air is in the ABS module, if any. I've bled the car maybe 10 times, aggressively and softly. I've even taken off the calipers and twisted them about whilst bleeding to make sure any air bubbles aren't trapped.
There's no leaking outside of the master cylinder, but could an internal seal be damaged, causing this?
Should I give in and get a dealer to do a proper bleed where they run the abs pump using their computer? They can do that, right?
Thanks for everyone's help so far. I really appreciate it.
07-04-2016, 07:42 AM
#15
A new set of discs all-round makes a tremendous difference.
But with some Honda cars, it seems near-impossible to get rid of the sponginess.
I'd bleed the rears again with the limiting valve disconnected and shoved into the 'slammed' position, in case it's preventing you doing anything.
The only other thing left is the master cylinder; change the internal seals.
Good luck!
But with some Honda cars, it seems near-impossible to get rid of the sponginess.
I'd bleed the rears again with the limiting valve disconnected and shoved into the 'slammed' position, in case it's preventing you doing anything.
The only other thing left is the master cylinder; change the internal seals.
Good luck!
07-04-2016, 08:10 AM
#16
Firewall flex is possible on the S2000. My master cylinder is braced against the shock tower. LHD car. But I really can't tell any difference, nor did I notice sponginess earlier.
-- Chuck
-- Chuck
07-04-2016, 09:04 AM
#18
Registered User
Thread Starter
Thanks for all the replies. The brake fluid I'm using is cheap Pagid Dot4 (http://www.eurocarparts.com/ecp/p/ca...0271&0&cc5_179). I use about 1L per flush. I have 2L of ATE Typ200 waiting to go in, but I don't want to put it in while I have a problem still.
I've had a look at the blown up diagram on Lings (http://lingshondaparts.com/honda_car...8&block_05=hcr) and it doens#t look like you can buy any seals on their own. Also, a lot of numbers are missing from the price list.
I'm not overly keen on doing ABS stops because I've got new tyres and I've done pretty heavy stops on them already and no locking up, they just grip and stop. I've also done quite a few ABS stops (some from 60 on tarmac, some from 10 on gravel) on my old tyres and that didn't change my brake feel after bleeding. If it is air in the ABS, then maybe a dealer flush would be the best option.
What's the limiting valve? I can't find anything about it apart from for a rolls-royce. Where do I find it please?
I have a master cylinder brace as well. It didn't make any difference for me either.
I guess my options are:
1) do another flush myself (honestly I've done it so many times now I don't think it will change anything) - £6
2) get a dealer to flush it and plug their computer in to cycle the abs pump - £50
3) get a new brake master cylinder - >£300 it seems
4) new pads - £109 for Dixcel ES (plus any shipping from B!M)
5) new pads and discs (since I don't know the origin of the current discs) - £109 + £93 for Dixcel rear rotors. I have OEM front rotors that have <500 miles already so I can put them on. Total: £202
6) get new pads and discs, plus go to the dealer to get a flush - £252
I really hope it's not the master cylinder. The fact that I can hit the end of the pedal travel is worrying though. The other fact that there's no fluid leaking out anywhere is positive.
I've had a look at the blown up diagram on Lings (http://lingshondaparts.com/honda_car...8&block_05=hcr) and it doens#t look like you can buy any seals on their own. Also, a lot of numbers are missing from the price list.
I'm not overly keen on doing ABS stops because I've got new tyres and I've done pretty heavy stops on them already and no locking up, they just grip and stop. I've also done quite a few ABS stops (some from 60 on tarmac, some from 10 on gravel) on my old tyres and that didn't change my brake feel after bleeding. If it is air in the ABS, then maybe a dealer flush would be the best option.
What's the limiting valve? I can't find anything about it apart from for a rolls-royce. Where do I find it please?
I have a master cylinder brace as well. It didn't make any difference for me either.
I guess my options are:
1) do another flush myself (honestly I've done it so many times now I don't think it will change anything) - £6
2) get a dealer to flush it and plug their computer in to cycle the abs pump - £50
3) get a new brake master cylinder - >£300 it seems
4) new pads - £109 for Dixcel ES (plus any shipping from B!M)
5) new pads and discs (since I don't know the origin of the current discs) - £109 + £93 for Dixcel rear rotors. I have OEM front rotors that have <500 miles already so I can put them on. Total: £202
6) get new pads and discs, plus go to the dealer to get a flush - £252
I really hope it's not the master cylinder. The fact that I can hit the end of the pedal travel is worrying though. The other fact that there's no fluid leaking out anywhere is positive.
07-04-2016, 09:07 AM
#19
Registered User
Thread Starter