S2000 and Elise S190
03-22-2006, 02:25 AM
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S2000 and Elise S190
I've had 2 S2000s in 4 years now, both company cars and both have been fun and practical enough for me as daily drivers, however as I now work from home, the advantage of having an S as a company car has diminished, and when it was to be my own cash I was spending, I decided to go for something a little more fun and a lot less practical. I do a lot of trackdays and the S2000 is just too much of a compromise, the brakes in standard form are no good on track and the car is really too heavy to be an effective track car.
After deciding on a S1 Elise (they seem to have stopped depreciating so much and are now sold on condition, rather than age) I began to look for something suitable. My primary source of fun these days is trackdays, so I was looking for a 111s or Sport 160 ideally, when I came across the Motorsport 190 at Sportomotive in Salisbury. Since I wanted something that would hold it's value, this car seemed a good idea being rare (only 46 made, only 20 in the UK).
After 2 minutes behind the wheel I knew it was the car for me and put a deposit down, I took delivery early March and as I had the S2000 for 3 weeks or so since I bought the Elise, I thought I'd post a back-to-back review here as I'm guessing it's something some of you might be interested in.
General - Well, the Elise is about as raw as a road car will go. It's got no creature comforts apart from a heater, is a pig to get in and out of thanks to 4 point harnesses and a race seat and it won't idle when cold, I have to sit with my foot on the throttle for 10 mins before I can go anywhere and even then the oil doesn't warm up for another 15-20 miles so no full-bore accelleration until that happens. Ground clearance is about 80mm which means swerving for almost anything on the road, and speed bumps are a particular problem.
The S2000 on the other hand I can get in, drive off and within a mile the heater has warmed up, within a few more the car will vtec quite happily and I don't even think about the temperature gauge once it goes to 3 bars. There are no 'no-go' areas with regards to everyday motoring and no-one gives a second glance to an S2000 these days (as opposed to a few years ago when I first got the car anyway) so no worry about it being nicked.
The S really is a useable sports car, the Elise is a racer with number plates. The S190 weighs just under 700kg thanks to thinner clamshells and various other weight saving measures like a race battery and lightweight seats, so the 190bhp gives a little over 280bhp/tonne power to weight ratio or to put it into perspective, about the same as a Ferrari 360. So it's quite quick
Engine - We all know about the power delivery of the F20C in the S2000, it's a vtec and therefore the real power is at the top end, the VHPD (Very High Power Derivative) version of the K series in the S190 is similar in terms of power delivery, with the real power coming in at over 5000rpm and the limiter kicking in at 8200rpm. There is less torque than the F20C, but a lot less weight so even under 5000rpm, the engine feels more torquey and it pulls well in any gear. The K series is a delicate thing though, it's not the 'top it up with oil and forget' F20C in the S, and being tuned to within an inch of it's life, will require a rebuild sometime around the 40-60k mile mark (currently it's at 27k) depending on how it's looked after (I intend to change the oil every 2-3000 miles). Also, thanks to it being designed for front-engined installation the temperature varies a lot on the Stack display, which doesn't bode well for Head Gasket life - there is a fix in the shape of a remote thermostat which has been one of my first purchases. It really is an engine you need to look after, not a jump in and thrash like the F20C. I know enough about having a tuned engine with the racecar I used to own though to know that looked after, most engines can be reliable, and that prevention and TLC is better than cure and large garage bills. I will miss the reliablity of the Honda, but the character of the K is really leagues ahead of the F20C - no clever cams here, just a lumpy, high lift profile which is grumpy and woolen under 2000rpm, then growls it's way to 8200rpm when provoked, popping and banging on the overrun. Aiding the noise are 4 throttle bodies and a sports exhaust so induction growl and exhaust rasp add to the character - you feel like you're in a racecar even at idle.
There are those that criticise the K series thanks to stories of head gasket failure, overheating and the like and I see their point, but I think Lotus chose an engine that, while sometimes a bit delicate, suits the car as it's so light, driving an S2 111R back to back with the S190 the newer car feels blunted and much more ordinary, the extra 100kg of the Toyota engine really makes it's presence felt in the nimbleness of the car, I'd have to go with those that say the S1 Elise follows Chapman's philosophy of speed through weight reduction far more than the S2, which seems to be pitching at a different market (I think, trying to woo the TT/Boxster buyer, which I'm not sure they're able to do, since that buyer is often after practicality and not necessarily driving ability) at the expense of that last 10% of driving ability.
Driving - The experience is very different from the S2000, those of you that think the S is low and snug when sat inside should try an Elise, I'm 5'9" and with the Corbeau race seat and the 4 point harness, just getting settled in the car is an effort - passengers get things no easier, although the passenger seat has less shoulder support and is therefore slimmer, there is a huge fire extinguisher in the footwell and a rollcage brace running diagonally from the footwell to the centre of the rollbar.
Once strapped in though and everything is right where it needs to be, heel and toe is immeasurably easier in this car than the S2000 (I don't understand the comment of the person who said he found the S easier, the pedals are way too far apart to do it easily, and I have size 9 feet), just a roll off the brake and the foot is right over the accellerator pedal. Visibility is great forwards, thanks to the large windscreen and short front end, rearwards is a different matter, however the view out of the wingmirrors of the flared haunches of the car makes you immediately feel you're in something special.
Fire up the engine and, so long as the car is warm, you're away.
First thing you notice is that the steering wheel is telling you everything you need to know about where the front wheels are and what they're doing, getting in the S2000 afterwards the steering felt numb, over-assisted and under-geared. Next thing is just how low you are, small hatchbacks tower over you, MPVs and 4x4s block out the sun. Overtaking is really a case of doing an exploratory dodge across the while lines to have a look, then making a split second descision (the trip to Le Mans, on the other side of the road will be interesting.....). But oh, when you do pull out to overtake, the surge forward and the sheer surprise at being past the obstruction before you've really had time to think about it is addictive. This car accellerates ferociously in any gear, from almost any rpm - no dropping 2 gears to overtake like you have to in the S, no having to change from 2nd to 3rd halfway through the procedure to keep the car accellerating, just squeeze the throttle and you're past, no drama, no fuss, lots of noise. Even short shifting in the Lotus at under 7000rpm, the difference between it and the S2000 is huge, getting back in the S, it just doesn't feel fast anymore. However to me, the most surprising and noticable difference between the Lotus and the Honda is ride quality, being rose jointed I was assuming that the Lotus would feel like all race cars do, jarring over even the slightest bump and prone to beign thrown off course by every undulation and stone in the road. In fact, despite the stiffness of the suspension, ride quality is far better than the S2000, several people have commented on how much more comfortable the Lotus is (once you're in) than the S, especially on the village roads around here. Gear change is nowhere near as precise as the S2000 (what car's could be?) which I miss, only partly mitigated by the fact there is less need to change gear in this car, I'm going to look into what I can do with the linkages, but I can't hope to get close to the S2000s directness.
Oh, have I mentioned corners yet?
Pete (gadaffi) followed me to and from Abingdon last week in his M5, on arrival at Abingdon he commented that he initially thought my brake lights must be broken as they weren't coming on when I went round corners that he found himself throwing the anchors out. I think that says a lot about this car's capabilities. The car is truly phenomenal round corners, it weighs practically nothing so there is zero body roll, it's damped so that any undulations or bumps don't upset the balance and there is no way that you could unstick the car at anything less than silly speeds. It's easy to see why the Elise is supposed to be the best handling road car in the world; it just is, no argument (and that includes Caterhams and the like).
Conclusions - Back to back, the cars seem like chalk and cheese, the S2000 is everything a daily driver should be, easy to get into, starts on the button (I've already had a flat battery on the Elise, it's now getting treated to a battery conditioner), you can drive away immediately and in a very short space of time you can be using the car to it's full capability.
But after the Elise it feels over assisted, the steering is light and uncommunicative, the pedals are too light (I know that sounds strange, but it feels like they should have more resistance, and once you've tried it, you realise how much easier it is to modulate the controls with a bit of resistance behind them) and the car rolls in corners too much, it feels slow under accelleration and uncomfortable over undulating surfaces.
The Elise is a complete driving tool, everything feels right, the unassisted steering and brakes allow far better control over their function, the 'point and squirt' nature of the car allows some truly astounding cornering speeds (I'm really going to have to watch my licence with this car) and I can't wait to get it on the track this Friday. However, it's not an everyday car, the fact it won't idle when cold, the harnesses and the restricted space getting in, the likelihood of something going wrong, the leaks when it rains. I mentioned the flat battery (motorsport batteries are about the size of motorbike batteries but have to crank a car engine, so the drain is considerable), I've also got a worn synchro in 3rd, meaning that changing up from 2nd makes you wince every time at the grinding noise - there's little harm being done, it sounds worse than it is and the dealer is having the car back next week and will remove the 'box and send it off to be refurbished for me free of charge - You have to budget supercar running costs for one of these cars, it's an Exige in all but silhouette (and the attendant downforce) but stripped down further for racing - of the 46 made, most went straight into competition with no changes so this isn't a road car, it just happens to have number plates. Things will always need doing, but then I like that (for as long as I remember I've had a 'garage project' going on) and I've had cars like this before (Integrale was a prime example), you don't go into ownership of something so extreme without doing your homework first, I expect the car to cost me
After deciding on a S1 Elise (they seem to have stopped depreciating so much and are now sold on condition, rather than age) I began to look for something suitable. My primary source of fun these days is trackdays, so I was looking for a 111s or Sport 160 ideally, when I came across the Motorsport 190 at Sportomotive in Salisbury. Since I wanted something that would hold it's value, this car seemed a good idea being rare (only 46 made, only 20 in the UK).
After 2 minutes behind the wheel I knew it was the car for me and put a deposit down, I took delivery early March and as I had the S2000 for 3 weeks or so since I bought the Elise, I thought I'd post a back-to-back review here as I'm guessing it's something some of you might be interested in.
General - Well, the Elise is about as raw as a road car will go. It's got no creature comforts apart from a heater, is a pig to get in and out of thanks to 4 point harnesses and a race seat and it won't idle when cold, I have to sit with my foot on the throttle for 10 mins before I can go anywhere and even then the oil doesn't warm up for another 15-20 miles so no full-bore accelleration until that happens. Ground clearance is about 80mm which means swerving for almost anything on the road, and speed bumps are a particular problem.
The S2000 on the other hand I can get in, drive off and within a mile the heater has warmed up, within a few more the car will vtec quite happily and I don't even think about the temperature gauge once it goes to 3 bars. There are no 'no-go' areas with regards to everyday motoring and no-one gives a second glance to an S2000 these days (as opposed to a few years ago when I first got the car anyway) so no worry about it being nicked.
The S really is a useable sports car, the Elise is a racer with number plates. The S190 weighs just under 700kg thanks to thinner clamshells and various other weight saving measures like a race battery and lightweight seats, so the 190bhp gives a little over 280bhp/tonne power to weight ratio or to put it into perspective, about the same as a Ferrari 360. So it's quite quick
Engine - We all know about the power delivery of the F20C in the S2000, it's a vtec and therefore the real power is at the top end, the VHPD (Very High Power Derivative) version of the K series in the S190 is similar in terms of power delivery, with the real power coming in at over 5000rpm and the limiter kicking in at 8200rpm. There is less torque than the F20C, but a lot less weight so even under 5000rpm, the engine feels more torquey and it pulls well in any gear. The K series is a delicate thing though, it's not the 'top it up with oil and forget' F20C in the S, and being tuned to within an inch of it's life, will require a rebuild sometime around the 40-60k mile mark (currently it's at 27k) depending on how it's looked after (I intend to change the oil every 2-3000 miles). Also, thanks to it being designed for front-engined installation the temperature varies a lot on the Stack display, which doesn't bode well for Head Gasket life - there is a fix in the shape of a remote thermostat which has been one of my first purchases. It really is an engine you need to look after, not a jump in and thrash like the F20C. I know enough about having a tuned engine with the racecar I used to own though to know that looked after, most engines can be reliable, and that prevention and TLC is better than cure and large garage bills. I will miss the reliablity of the Honda, but the character of the K is really leagues ahead of the F20C - no clever cams here, just a lumpy, high lift profile which is grumpy and woolen under 2000rpm, then growls it's way to 8200rpm when provoked, popping and banging on the overrun. Aiding the noise are 4 throttle bodies and a sports exhaust so induction growl and exhaust rasp add to the character - you feel like you're in a racecar even at idle.
There are those that criticise the K series thanks to stories of head gasket failure, overheating and the like and I see their point, but I think Lotus chose an engine that, while sometimes a bit delicate, suits the car as it's so light, driving an S2 111R back to back with the S190 the newer car feels blunted and much more ordinary, the extra 100kg of the Toyota engine really makes it's presence felt in the nimbleness of the car, I'd have to go with those that say the S1 Elise follows Chapman's philosophy of speed through weight reduction far more than the S2, which seems to be pitching at a different market (I think, trying to woo the TT/Boxster buyer, which I'm not sure they're able to do, since that buyer is often after practicality and not necessarily driving ability) at the expense of that last 10% of driving ability.
Driving - The experience is very different from the S2000, those of you that think the S is low and snug when sat inside should try an Elise, I'm 5'9" and with the Corbeau race seat and the 4 point harness, just getting settled in the car is an effort - passengers get things no easier, although the passenger seat has less shoulder support and is therefore slimmer, there is a huge fire extinguisher in the footwell and a rollcage brace running diagonally from the footwell to the centre of the rollbar.
Once strapped in though and everything is right where it needs to be, heel and toe is immeasurably easier in this car than the S2000 (I don't understand the comment of the person who said he found the S easier, the pedals are way too far apart to do it easily, and I have size 9 feet), just a roll off the brake and the foot is right over the accellerator pedal. Visibility is great forwards, thanks to the large windscreen and short front end, rearwards is a different matter, however the view out of the wingmirrors of the flared haunches of the car makes you immediately feel you're in something special.
Fire up the engine and, so long as the car is warm, you're away.
First thing you notice is that the steering wheel is telling you everything you need to know about where the front wheels are and what they're doing, getting in the S2000 afterwards the steering felt numb, over-assisted and under-geared. Next thing is just how low you are, small hatchbacks tower over you, MPVs and 4x4s block out the sun. Overtaking is really a case of doing an exploratory dodge across the while lines to have a look, then making a split second descision (the trip to Le Mans, on the other side of the road will be interesting.....). But oh, when you do pull out to overtake, the surge forward and the sheer surprise at being past the obstruction before you've really had time to think about it is addictive. This car accellerates ferociously in any gear, from almost any rpm - no dropping 2 gears to overtake like you have to in the S, no having to change from 2nd to 3rd halfway through the procedure to keep the car accellerating, just squeeze the throttle and you're past, no drama, no fuss, lots of noise. Even short shifting in the Lotus at under 7000rpm, the difference between it and the S2000 is huge, getting back in the S, it just doesn't feel fast anymore. However to me, the most surprising and noticable difference between the Lotus and the Honda is ride quality, being rose jointed I was assuming that the Lotus would feel like all race cars do, jarring over even the slightest bump and prone to beign thrown off course by every undulation and stone in the road. In fact, despite the stiffness of the suspension, ride quality is far better than the S2000, several people have commented on how much more comfortable the Lotus is (once you're in) than the S, especially on the village roads around here. Gear change is nowhere near as precise as the S2000 (what car's could be?) which I miss, only partly mitigated by the fact there is less need to change gear in this car, I'm going to look into what I can do with the linkages, but I can't hope to get close to the S2000s directness.
Oh, have I mentioned corners yet?
Pete (gadaffi) followed me to and from Abingdon last week in his M5, on arrival at Abingdon he commented that he initially thought my brake lights must be broken as they weren't coming on when I went round corners that he found himself throwing the anchors out. I think that says a lot about this car's capabilities. The car is truly phenomenal round corners, it weighs practically nothing so there is zero body roll, it's damped so that any undulations or bumps don't upset the balance and there is no way that you could unstick the car at anything less than silly speeds. It's easy to see why the Elise is supposed to be the best handling road car in the world; it just is, no argument (and that includes Caterhams and the like).
Conclusions - Back to back, the cars seem like chalk and cheese, the S2000 is everything a daily driver should be, easy to get into, starts on the button (I've already had a flat battery on the Elise, it's now getting treated to a battery conditioner), you can drive away immediately and in a very short space of time you can be using the car to it's full capability.
But after the Elise it feels over assisted, the steering is light and uncommunicative, the pedals are too light (I know that sounds strange, but it feels like they should have more resistance, and once you've tried it, you realise how much easier it is to modulate the controls with a bit of resistance behind them) and the car rolls in corners too much, it feels slow under accelleration and uncomfortable over undulating surfaces.
The Elise is a complete driving tool, everything feels right, the unassisted steering and brakes allow far better control over their function, the 'point and squirt' nature of the car allows some truly astounding cornering speeds (I'm really going to have to watch my licence with this car) and I can't wait to get it on the track this Friday. However, it's not an everyday car, the fact it won't idle when cold, the harnesses and the restricted space getting in, the likelihood of something going wrong, the leaks when it rains. I mentioned the flat battery (motorsport batteries are about the size of motorbike batteries but have to crank a car engine, so the drain is considerable), I've also got a worn synchro in 3rd, meaning that changing up from 2nd makes you wince every time at the grinding noise - there's little harm being done, it sounds worse than it is and the dealer is having the car back next week and will remove the 'box and send it off to be refurbished for me free of charge - You have to budget supercar running costs for one of these cars, it's an Exige in all but silhouette (and the attendant downforce) but stripped down further for racing - of the 46 made, most went straight into competition with no changes so this isn't a road car, it just happens to have number plates. Things will always need doing, but then I like that (for as long as I remember I've had a 'garage project' going on) and I've had cars like this before (Integrale was a prime example), you don't go into ownership of something so extreme without doing your homework first, I expect the car to cost me
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03-22-2006, 03:14 AM
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Originally Posted by neil82cup,Mar 22 2006, 12:10 PM
Did anyone else stop reading after the third paragraph? hehe
buying a new one must seem like financial suicide
03-22-2006, 03:16 AM
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Originally Posted by gaddafi,Mar 22 2006, 04:14 AM
only people who still think the S2000 is still up there with serious machinery
buying a new one must seem like financial suicide
buying a new one must seem like financial suicide
little one. Who thinks its up there with "serious" machinery? You class a M5 as that?
