Sea change moment ?
11-01-2016, 12:14 AM
#1
Registered User
Thread Starter
Sea change moment ?
I'm sure that most of you will have seen this footage on the news already.
So will we all be outraged for a week and then business as usual or will this incident have a genuine lasting effect on driver behaviour ?
A lorry driver who killed a mother and three children while distracted by his phone has been jailed for 10 years.
Tracy Houghton, 45, died instantly along with her sons Ethan, 13, and Joshua, 11, and her partner's daughter Aimee Goldsmith, also 11, when Tomasz Kroker smashed into stationary traffic.
Judge Maura McGowan said his attention had been so poor he "might as well have had his eyes closed".
Kroker, 30, was scrolling through music selections at the time of the crash.
Tracy Houghton, 45, died instantly along with her sons Ethan, 13, and Joshua, 11, and her partner's daughter Aimee Goldsmith, also 11, when Tomasz Kroker smashed into stationary traffic.
Judge Maura McGowan said his attention had been so poor he "might as well have had his eyes closed".
Kroker, 30, was scrolling through music selections at the time of the crash.
The court heard he had been so distracted he barely looked at the road for almost a kilometre. The judge described the case as the most horrific she had ever seen.
11-01-2016, 12:33 AM
#2
No use issuing stiffer sentences, it's driver behaviour that does need to change. Compulsory dash cams fitted to all new cars? I don't know how you go about fixing this - people are stupid and it only takes a split second for something like this to happen. He should never get an HGV license again. The sentencing for these types of deaths needs to be changed to murder (not death by dangerous driving) and all the associated stigma that comes with it.
Realistically we need a return to active traffic police, people with the power to stop those who do this - as it stands, can you remember the last time you saw traffic police? The actual numbers of them per county is scary. The chances of anyone being caught at the moment is slim to none.
RAC Press Centre | Latest news, comments, data and research | RAC
You've only got to look at the hours some of the courier firm self employed drivers are forced to work to realise the true scale of the problem.
Realistically we need a return to active traffic police, people with the power to stop those who do this - as it stands, can you remember the last time you saw traffic police? The actual numbers of them per county is scary. The chances of anyone being caught at the moment is slim to none.
RAC Press Centre | Latest news, comments, data and research | RAC
You've only got to look at the hours some of the courier firm self employed drivers are forced to work to realise the true scale of the problem.
11-01-2016, 12:42 AM
#3
Banned
It isn't murder. Look up the definition.
I have no problem with instant two year bans and £5000 fines and after a few bleeding hearts 'I lost my job and family because of the harsh ban' type stories, you could change behaviour.
But the wider problem is the increased use of technology in cars. Don't cars like Teslas feature large computer like touchscreens?
So phones are only one issue. As is the case in the OP, it wasn't the phone was it? It was scrolling for music. This will be the bigger issue, just like checking your Faceache.
Technology needs to complement changes in driver behaviour.
Somewhat surprisingly, my 12 year old STR has a large touch screen which operates the satnav and audio. Interestingly, the satnav function can't be operated when the car is moving. That's the kind of simple technical change that could make a difference.
Another would be camera technology and pursuing phone users with same enthusiasm used to snare speeders.
I have no problem with instant two year bans and £5000 fines and after a few bleeding hearts 'I lost my job and family because of the harsh ban' type stories, you could change behaviour.
But the wider problem is the increased use of technology in cars. Don't cars like Teslas feature large computer like touchscreens?
So phones are only one issue. As is the case in the OP, it wasn't the phone was it? It was scrolling for music. This will be the bigger issue, just like checking your Faceache.
Technology needs to complement changes in driver behaviour.
Somewhat surprisingly, my 12 year old STR has a large touch screen which operates the satnav and audio. Interestingly, the satnav function can't be operated when the car is moving. That's the kind of simple technical change that could make a difference.
Another would be camera technology and pursuing phone users with same enthusiasm used to snare speeders.
11-01-2016, 12:59 AM
#4
I suspect if Terry Trucker stuffed his 40T wagon into the back end of your car @ 56mph whilst you were sat in it you might feel differently, if he had spent 1km prior to that looking at nothing but his phone you could quite happily argue the case, I wouldn't argue with you if you did.
My point is that to change behaviour, clearly the system needs a good shakeup and the current one isn't working.
Your latter point is probably the more salient one, cameras are good enough to spot what people are doing behind the wheel and should issue a fine / points accordingly and then, we need to get harsh on the 12 points and then BAN with no extenuating circumstances arguable by the legal fraternity.
My point is that to change behaviour, clearly the system needs a good shakeup and the current one isn't working.
Your latter point is probably the more salient one, cameras are good enough to spot what people are doing behind the wheel and should issue a fine / points accordingly and then, we need to get harsh on the 12 points and then BAN with no extenuating circumstances arguable by the legal fraternity.
11-01-2016, 02:06 AM
#5
Banned
I suspect if Terry Trucker stuffed his 40T wagon into the back end of your car @ 56mph whilst you were sat in it you might feel differently, if he had spent 1km prior to that looking at nothing but his phone you could quite happily argue the case, I wouldn't argue with you if you did.
My point is that to change behaviour, clearly the system needs a good shakeup and the current one isn't working.
Your latter point is probably the more salient one, cameras are good enough to spot what people are doing behind the wheel and should issue a fine / points accordingly and then, we need to get harsh on the 12 points and then BAN with no extenuating circumstances arguable by the legal fraternity.
My point is that to change behaviour, clearly the system needs a good shakeup and the current one isn't working.
Your latter point is probably the more salient one, cameras are good enough to spot what people are doing behind the wheel and should issue a fine / points accordingly and then, we need to get harsh on the 12 points and then BAN with no extenuating circumstances arguable by the legal fraternity.
Of course, I don't know for sure, but I would be extremely surprised if many of the bereaved in this tragic case haven't at some point used their phone or social media whilst driving. A good friend of mine is a primary school teacher and has now been convicted twice for phone use whilst driving What can you say? Every time I have challenged people about why they can't switch the phone off or put it in the glove compartment at the start of the journey, they trot out some crap about their job and their need to be available 24/7 to keep the world rotating, or some hypothetical situation about a dying relative needing to contact them. All bs as we know. They simply prioritise using the technology above their responsibilities as a driver.
I am in complete agreement with you about the system needing a shake up. Make the owner of the car responsible for identifying a driver photographed on the phone and if they won't, apply S172 as is done with speeding.
11-01-2016, 02:20 AM
#6
First thing i do before setting off is make sure the phone is on via bluetooth and secure in its cradle, Google maps programmed with a destination ( if any ) and lock screen passcode is unset for driving. For me, that process is as automatic as putting on a seat belt. Equally, much like riding a bike, i want to be comfortable before i set off with no need to focus on anything else but driving. Of course in a more premium car, i'd not use the phone as a Nav tool - so maybe the technology would be less intrusive if it was more integrated. You've only got to look at the range of old stuff that people still use to see the problem with that.
Modern systems in cars need to be able to connect and use everything from Nokia6310i right through to the latest devices and without the need to use the device itself - assuming you can't get people out of the habit of being connected to the bloody things 24x7.
In commercial vehicles maybe there needs to be a complete ban on personal phones in use whilst 'in the office', combine that with preinstalled cab interior cameras and all footage to be reviewed at the end of each trip, same as with the Tachograph and serial offenders would be caught red handed and if possibly license category revoked as part of that. Maybe as a part of safety briefings, videos like the one above need to be shown to employees until the message is recieved.
Personally, i don't think personal phones and all the crap they bring with them have any place in the workplace whilst you are working and any 'emergency' messages can be delivered to reception or to an agreed office number. If it's that dire an emergency, 999 would likely be the better number to call.
Modern systems in cars need to be able to connect and use everything from Nokia6310i right through to the latest devices and without the need to use the device itself - assuming you can't get people out of the habit of being connected to the bloody things 24x7.
In commercial vehicles maybe there needs to be a complete ban on personal phones in use whilst 'in the office', combine that with preinstalled cab interior cameras and all footage to be reviewed at the end of each trip, same as with the Tachograph and serial offenders would be caught red handed and if possibly license category revoked as part of that. Maybe as a part of safety briefings, videos like the one above need to be shown to employees until the message is recieved.
Personally, i don't think personal phones and all the crap they bring with them have any place in the workplace whilst you are working and any 'emergency' messages can be delivered to reception or to an agreed office number. If it's that dire an emergency, 999 would likely be the better number to call.
11-01-2016, 03:03 AM
#7
Registered User
Thread Starter
For me it comes down to perception.
In general I think everybody knows that you shouldn't use a mobile phone and drive, but most people don't believe they will be the cause of an accident.
We all have a duty of care and what we need to remember is that we are in command (or not as the case above) of a lethal weapon.
I don't for one moment believe that the truck driver intended to kill anybody, he made a stupid error of judgement, but as a professional driver in charge of a HGV he has a duty of care to behave in a responsible manner.
It's not just road vehicles either, page 2 of the following document has two items on social media and mobile phone use in aviation.
https://www.chirp.co.uk/upload/docs/...%20Version.pdf
In general I think everybody knows that you shouldn't use a mobile phone and drive, but most people don't believe they will be the cause of an accident.
We all have a duty of care and what we need to remember is that we are in command (or not as the case above) of a lethal weapon.
I don't for one moment believe that the truck driver intended to kill anybody, he made a stupid error of judgement, but as a professional driver in charge of a HGV he has a duty of care to behave in a responsible manner.
It's not just road vehicles either, page 2 of the following document has two items on social media and mobile phone use in aviation.
https://www.chirp.co.uk/upload/docs/...%20Version.pdf
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11-01-2016, 03:05 AM
#8
UF, you are falling into the Statist 'something must be done' indoctrination; imposing fines/surveillance is in almost all cases counter-productive.
There are millions of us driving, and creating a few whipping horses (upon which they over-enjoy taking out their hidden bigotry) only actually creates something akin to the 'martyr' effect and is counter-productive. It's the same as people now largely laugh at the Police for their ineptitude at prosecuting 'real' crime but being good for nothing more than collecting tax off the motorists, overlooking the real work they do. That produces a contempt for the real safety rules, as much as for the silly ones. A few whipping horses does not change the behaviour or thinking of the many.
You now have a generation of cars, where the money has gone on increasing the 'feature content' and they are incredibly boring to drive. They do have a huge screen covered in FREDs instead, for the ironically-named 'connected generation'. Having wasted their learning and inquiring years looking at a fucking square of pixels, they could not be more disconnected from reality. What are they gonna do, enjoy the scenery and the tactility of the steering feel, or text their virtual friend with some inanity?
What is worse is these arty-farty designer twats have buries functions in there, which used to be far more efficiently-performed by tactile switches; it now requires eye contact to adjust HVAC settings, which previously could adequately been done by feel alone.
It's one of the reasons I tend to prefer to let CD-changers (or solid-state equivalents) just run in the car; not only is optioning very distracting for a very long time (and especially at getting-somewhere-in-life speeds, distance) it's fucking impossibly difficult to remember and to navigate all these different menus anyway.
Some racing drivers were capable of picking up a dropped compact-cassette from the floor whilst drifting round a roundabout, but that is beyond the capabilities of the average or below-average driver.
You also have however to look at the bigger picture; facts Mr Gradgrind. Despite all this distractivity, these sort of accidents are actually far less frequent then they used to be. You get the odd story of an HGV1 driver crashing whilst wanking, but in the days of noisy, uncomfortable wagons with shit lighting and HVAC were far more fatiguing on the driver - incidences of 'microsleep' were far more common (we've all done it, but fortunately caught ourselves in time) and horrendous accidents far more common. I knew a company director who used to keep himself awake driving back from B'rum in the evenings with the windows wound down and his foot to the floor, to force his concentration. It was an SD1 3500, too. Cannot do THAT with these silly 'average speed cameras' enforcing boredom...
A programme of education (maybe via text spam would be ironic?) would be far more productive, allowing for the problem that those working in advertising seem to think they are talking to mawkish retards (maybe the 2CK thing is commonplace and I've failed to notice?) these days, REAL Gov't information propaganda would be a far better solution. I realise that in this age, it would be less of a source of money than fining people though.
'Something must be done, even if actually doing nothing would be optimal'
There are millions of us driving, and creating a few whipping horses (upon which they over-enjoy taking out their hidden bigotry) only actually creates something akin to the 'martyr' effect and is counter-productive. It's the same as people now largely laugh at the Police for their ineptitude at prosecuting 'real' crime but being good for nothing more than collecting tax off the motorists, overlooking the real work they do. That produces a contempt for the real safety rules, as much as for the silly ones. A few whipping horses does not change the behaviour or thinking of the many.
You now have a generation of cars, where the money has gone on increasing the 'feature content' and they are incredibly boring to drive. They do have a huge screen covered in FREDs instead, for the ironically-named 'connected generation'. Having wasted their learning and inquiring years looking at a fucking square of pixels, they could not be more disconnected from reality. What are they gonna do, enjoy the scenery and the tactility of the steering feel, or text their virtual friend with some inanity?
What is worse is these arty-farty designer twats have buries functions in there, which used to be far more efficiently-performed by tactile switches; it now requires eye contact to adjust HVAC settings, which previously could adequately been done by feel alone.
It's one of the reasons I tend to prefer to let CD-changers (or solid-state equivalents) just run in the car; not only is optioning very distracting for a very long time (and especially at getting-somewhere-in-life speeds, distance) it's fucking impossibly difficult to remember and to navigate all these different menus anyway.
Some racing drivers were capable of picking up a dropped compact-cassette from the floor whilst drifting round a roundabout, but that is beyond the capabilities of the average or below-average driver.
You also have however to look at the bigger picture; facts Mr Gradgrind. Despite all this distractivity, these sort of accidents are actually far less frequent then they used to be. You get the odd story of an HGV1 driver crashing whilst wanking, but in the days of noisy, uncomfortable wagons with shit lighting and HVAC were far more fatiguing on the driver - incidences of 'microsleep' were far more common (we've all done it, but fortunately caught ourselves in time) and horrendous accidents far more common. I knew a company director who used to keep himself awake driving back from B'rum in the evenings with the windows wound down and his foot to the floor, to force his concentration. It was an SD1 3500, too. Cannot do THAT with these silly 'average speed cameras' enforcing boredom...
A programme of education (maybe via text spam would be ironic?) would be far more productive, allowing for the problem that those working in advertising seem to think they are talking to mawkish retards (maybe the 2CK thing is commonplace and I've failed to notice?) these days, REAL Gov't information propaganda would be a far better solution. I realise that in this age, it would be less of a source of money than fining people though.
'Something must be done, even if actually doing nothing would be optimal'
Last edited by Nick Graves; 11-01-2016 at 03:07 AM.
11-01-2016, 03:26 AM
#9
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The problem is we all know we should not do it, but most people just take the assumption that they will not be caught so why not, they see everybody else doing it.
Apart from a decent educational and advertising campaign to try and change attitudes, what you need is the common everyday user to get caught regularly to realize they cannot get away with it.
You will still get those who consider themselves above the law and will do it anyway, but its about changes the great majority of the users that is key.
With so few road traffic officers it is understandable that they feel they are able to get away with it.
Even if there were more officers, its the huge amount of people who use phones in the normal town traffic routes that you see the most, which is the sort of location those officers are unlikely to be patrolling.
They almost need to pick heavy trafficked routes and sit on it for a week and pull all the drivers breaking the rules.
They would rake in the fines or at least give a lot of people a shock and hopefully start to change attitudes.
Apart from a decent educational and advertising campaign to try and change attitudes, what you need is the common everyday user to get caught regularly to realize they cannot get away with it.
You will still get those who consider themselves above the law and will do it anyway, but its about changes the great majority of the users that is key.
With so few road traffic officers it is understandable that they feel they are able to get away with it.
Even if there were more officers, its the huge amount of people who use phones in the normal town traffic routes that you see the most, which is the sort of location those officers are unlikely to be patrolling.
They almost need to pick heavy trafficked routes and sit on it for a week and pull all the drivers breaking the rules.
They would rake in the fines or at least give a lot of people a shock and hopefully start to change attitudes.
11-01-2016, 03:37 AM
#10
What is worse is these arty-farty designer twats have buries functions in there, which used to be far more efficiently-performed by tactile switches; it now requires eye contact to adjust HVAC settings, which previously could adequately been done by feel alone.
It's one of the reasons I tend to prefer to let CD-changers (or solid-state equivalents) just run in the car; not only is optioning very distracting for a very long time (and especially at getting-somewhere-in-life speeds, distance) it's fucking impossibly difficult to remember and to navigate all these different menus anyway.
Some racing drivers were capable of picking up a dropped compact-cassette from the floor whilst drifting round a roundabout, but that is beyond the capabilities of the average or below-average driver.
It's one of the reasons I tend to prefer to let CD-changers (or solid-state equivalents) just run in the car; not only is optioning very distracting for a very long time (and especially at getting-somewhere-in-life speeds, distance) it's fucking impossibly difficult to remember and to navigate all these different menus anyway.
Some racing drivers were capable of picking up a dropped compact-cassette from the floor whilst drifting round a roundabout, but that is beyond the capabilities of the average or below-average driver.
Maybe there is nothing to be done other than fit emergency brake systems and hope they catch the percentage of current accidents that the careless humans fail to do anything about. Of course if you do that, you get left with only the really severe stuff either because mechanical failure / electrical failure or just too much stupidity for the systems to protect from in the first place.
Perhaps Clarkson was right after all, a big sodding metal spike in the middle of the steering wheel is really the way forward after all.