20 Miles Can Teach You A Lot
02-23-2006, 05:32 PM
#1
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20 Miles Can Teach You A Lot
**Disclaimer: Guys visiting from other boards, welcome to S2Ki. A lot of your comments have been about how you can't get a feel for the car unless you have hundreds of miles in it. Most if not ALL potential buyers will never get the chance to do that. 15 minutes is all a potential buyer can hope for before having to make a decision on a purchase. From what I understand, most of you Solstice buyers can't get a test drive period. So with that in mind, we were given equal seat time to test drive both cars under the same: conditions, roads, everything. From what it appears, we got a lot more than most people who already own these cars did. So with that in mind..... read ahead 
!
There are many here who are in love with Pontiac's new Solstice. I myself have participated in many discussions on the matter. So, yesterday morning 44Runner and I set out to do a little test driving of Lutz' much hyped Solstice Roadster. The Solstice has been priced to compete with Mazda's tried and true MX-5, which after 17 years on the market has earned itself a place in the history books.
44Runner, the previous owner of an Integra GSR and current S2000 owner, and I a previous owner of a 03 SE MX-5, and current owner of an S2000 have spent years behind the wheels of sportish modes of transportation. So taking our backgrounds, we proceeded to have our selves a comparison.
Arriving at the Pontiac dealership, there were three Solstices on the lot, a red and two shades of silver. All three had different interior combos - cloth in black, black leather, and two toned tan/black. We were also blessed with a salesman, and for the sake of anonymity, lets call him "Bob".
"Bob" was your typical salesman, albeit one that you could have a descent conversation with. We were upfront with him on the fact that both of us were car guys, especially when it came to sports cars. I should warn you, being an anal retentive, OCD, attention to details type I tend to see things most don't.
If you take offense to the article, sorry.... apples are apples, oranges are oranges, and this is just how it is. So, here we go...
We began to examine the red Solstice. I have to admit, it is an attractive car. Its like Clarkson said about the Miura, it would look great in a garden. It has those lines that give it a muscular stance, smooth sheet metal stretched over the wheel arches, and a design that is completely all its own. It makes a statement (which statement we will cover later), and definitely looks the part of a sports car.
"Bob" leaned into the passenger side and pulled a lever (which BTW I couldn't find) and those two "winglets" shot up like a jack-in-the-box. He next opened the rear clamshell exposing the "Rear Compartment" (I would call it a trunk but lets not stretch the truth here...) "Bob" then released the top and folded it into the compartment, having to push several times down on it to get it to fold down enough to close the clamshell. As he was closing the lid, he said "You have to push down in the center of this (the lid) because over time this will bend." I thought... "Nice". Another thing I noticed was that the "winglets" were velcro sealed together along the top seam, logic didn't explain this but GM had placed 3M clear protectant around the holes for the "winglets" to keep inevitable scratches at bay.
There are a lot of exposed gadgetry and wires directly behind the seats on the inside of the rear compartment, something I took notice of. Leaking immediately sprung to mind. Top down, the Solstice was in its prime. The engine bay wasn't interesting enough to make mention of BUT I did notice that the engine wasn't as far back as I have become used to in recent years. GM did however place Bilsteins at all four corners, something I was very impressed with.
"Bob" seemed quite helpful at times. He explained that they have been buying Solstices off of other lots, that mostly women bought them, and that they had already sold 11. Of course 44Runner and I were playing good cop/bad cop - he the interested potential buyer and I ... the subjective know it all. But to demonstrate how knowledgable our "Bob" was, allow me to give you a few quotes.
-"What kind of car is that?" - as I drove up in my S
then
-"I'm sure your honda is a good car but this is a collector's item. They are only producing 7,000 a year" - Well, thats not far off from the S2000 "Bob"
We were given the keys and climbed in. 44Runner was up first. We looked over the interior, which 44Runner thought was of great design. He also said "Look at this" and proceeded to grab the corner of the center console cover and pull it inches off the console. I pushed the cup holder in to release it thats located in the passenger footwell. It opened about a quarter of an inch, then stuck. Prying it with my fingers, I got it open. The seats were comfortable but there is no "Lever" to adjust the seat but instead a large round knob, placed so awkwardly at first we didn't believe the seats were adjustable. There is NO storage space in this car, with the exception of the glovebox and center console simular to the one in the S2000. Another issue was the steering wheel. For 44Runner to properly place the steering wheel, he had cut his line of sight of the gauge cluster. The wheel arches directly through the speedo and tach.
Before we had even got out of the car lot, 44Runner was already complaining about the feel of the steering (or lack there of). We drove about 5 miles covering city streets, interstate on/of ramps, highways, and side streets and also did some passing, hard cornering, and casual cruising. Then it was my turn at the helm. I climbed in and we took off. immediately I knew what he was griping about. The steering was terrible, not only was there NO feedback, there was also 10 degrees of play off dead center. I wiggled the wheel back and forth, the car continued straight. A safety issue we had was that the side mirrors were absolutely useless, I mean useless.
The clutch was my biggest gripe. GM had actually managed to reverse engineer the feel of a clutch. First off, the clutch in both of our testers were extremely light (when I got back into my car, I had to use leg muscle for the first time). When you press the clutch in this car, what resistance there is to your foot fades quickly the farther you press the clutch. I actually had the car jerk on me a couple of times until I got used to it.
Rolling up to the first light, brakes felt adequate but what we both noted and commended GM on was the solid chassis of this car. It does feel solid without a rattle or bit of flex detectable. The light turned green and I took off for 60mph, kind of. For anyone who has ever wondered allow me to tell you. This car is SLOOOOOOWWWW. I haven't driven a car that not only is slow but also felt slower until them. It was so bad, I did it again to make sure.
I continued driving back to the dealership, noting the solid feel of the chassis yet complete numbness everywhere else. I also noted that for a car with so few miles it already had 5 scratches in the interior. The Solstice has no wind diffuser but one isn't necessary. Wind at highways speeds was less that that of the S2000 to give you an idea. The Solstice's stereo was loud enough at highways speeds to hear clearly thanks to speakers located just behind the door sill. Plus it has an I-pod input.
We returned the Solstice and went over some of our likes and dislikes with good ole' "Bob". I pointed out to 44Runner that this was a girl's car, which he kinda gawked at until I pointed out something... the vanity mirror is on the driver's side. He said "So".. to which I pointed out that the other night suzukabluegirl and I went to get something to eat and she was checking out her makeup while in my passenger seat.... Ah Ha! He agreed Another thing I noticed was that there were pockets across the front of the seats. Imagine how saggy and hanging open those will be after a few thousand mile behind the wheel.
When we got into my car, I said to 44Runner "Lets try out the new MX-5". We cut through the Ford lot (which had 2 Saleen Mustang's and 1 Roush) to Mazda. Here we met "The Dude". "The Dude" was a salesman in his ohh late 40s to mid 50s. This guy was a car guy. He was cool, and he knew his stuff. Apparently he had been selling Mazdas for a long time and atleast he knew what an S2000 was.
Anyway, I was the interested buyer. No bad cop this time. I owned an MX-5 SE in 2003, loved it. What made me hand over the keys was the lack of elbow room and power. The MX-5 is a dream when it comes to nimbleness. 44Runner has always given me sh** for owning that car, so I asked him if he had ever driven one. "Once" he said.
"The Dude" brought out the keys to my favorite new color combo.. the dark silver/brown combo. I told 44Runner "watch this" as I single handedly unlatched and lower the top into place... all from the driver seat! The interior was great, which we both agreed on. The piano black across the dash looked great. Also, storage. My gawd does this car have storage: in the doors, glove box, a trunk!, and two compartments behind the seats.
This car felt like a 30+ thousand dollar vehicle, the fitment was exact, usage of materials was light years beyond the Solstice.. and stitching... this was the first time I was actually excited about the stitchwork in a car!
What a difference.... before I had got off the lot, I could feel that this was a sports car. The steering was simply amazing; point and shoot. Everything I stated about the Solstice with the exception of the chassis rigidity was the exact opposite. The engine loves to rev, loves it. The seats are really comfortable, the body solid, the acceleration was impressive as well. I ripped through some gears and could tell I was in a completely different car. There was no possibility of mishap here, it was just so good I did it again, passing just over 7K rpm between shifts.
44Runner came to the same conclusion during his drive with the exception of the clutch. The MX-5 requires full extension of the clutch pedal before the clutch engages. Something easily fixed compared to the Solstice's handling and heavy duty transmission. Thats another thing. The transmission in the Solstice was tough, clunky, and had long throws despite its short appearance. The Mazda on the other hand was a jewel. Extremely sort, precise, and effortless. The Solstice's oversized gear knob was an unpleasant place for my smallish hands, but the Mazdas fit like a glove.
We returned the Mazda and summarized our comparo. I think 44Runner gained new respect for the MX-5. I put the top up, this time from the passenger seat. But this time there was a problem. With the top up, 44Runner's head touched the frame! He didn't fit! We talked about it and this is where we stood...
The Solstice:
The good:
-Exterior looks great
-Solid Structure
-Quite ride
-Good exhaust tone
-Large grippy tires
-Feels solid on the road
The bad:
-Interior is terrible, GM quality = poor materials
-Numb loose steering
-Clunky transmission/clutch
-Over elaborate top which will no doubt leak sooner than later
-"Market Value Adjustment"
-Pure lack of power, like I said this thing is ssslllooowww
The MX-5:
The Good:
-Steering feedback
-Amazing snick snick tranny
-High revving engine
-Easy top
-interior design
-quality quality quality
The bad:
-Clutch engagement point
-Tall people don't fit
-Exterior styling
-Thats it.....
I really wanted to be impressed by the Solstice. I wanted to be awed by it because I would love to see GM turn things around... but this was not it. The Solstice was a big disappointment. It had no go, was a pain to change gears in, and worst of all felt cheap.
The Mazda was polished and poised. Years of R & D put into it, making specific parts for the car that was shared with no other. The Solstice was a Frankenstein of parts from the GM parts bin, and it showed. The MX-5 could be had with superior: build quality, sportiness, handling, throttle response, top design (Mazda even designed a rain rail so you can open your window on rainy days without getting soaked), transmission, Bose seven speaker stereo, smart card keyless entry, HIDs, supportive stitched leather seats, roll bars, side and front airbags, acceleration, cornering, road manners, 4 cup holders that worked, interior design, storage, and a trunk for less than a Solstice with pleather, sat radio, power windows and locks!!! Not even a GXP model is going to be able to fix all of the wrongs with the Solstice.
The MX-5 tested came only without the smartcard keyless entry option and tipped the scale at just over $25,000 on the window.
The Solstices were listed at $24,000 with a "Market Adjustment" of an additional $5,200 dollars
, making the Solstice just over $29,000 dollars!
I cannot for the life of me figure out how GM is justifying the money because within 20 miles it is easy to see Apple from the Orange. I pity anyone who buys a Solstice. I wanted to like that car, but it was truly disappointing. For my money, I'll take the MX-5.
If you don't believe me, I encourage you to try it yourself......
44Runner's write up on the MX-5 and Solstice
!There are many here who are in love with Pontiac's new Solstice. I myself have participated in many discussions on the matter. So, yesterday morning 44Runner and I set out to do a little test driving of Lutz' much hyped Solstice Roadster. The Solstice has been priced to compete with Mazda's tried and true MX-5, which after 17 years on the market has earned itself a place in the history books.
44Runner, the previous owner of an Integra GSR and current S2000 owner, and I a previous owner of a 03 SE MX-5, and current owner of an S2000 have spent years behind the wheels of sportish modes of transportation. So taking our backgrounds, we proceeded to have our selves a comparison.
Arriving at the Pontiac dealership, there were three Solstices on the lot, a red and two shades of silver. All three had different interior combos - cloth in black, black leather, and two toned tan/black. We were also blessed with a salesman, and for the sake of anonymity, lets call him "Bob".
"Bob" was your typical salesman, albeit one that you could have a descent conversation with. We were upfront with him on the fact that both of us were car guys, especially when it came to sports cars. I should warn you, being an anal retentive, OCD, attention to details type I tend to see things most don't.
If you take offense to the article, sorry.... apples are apples, oranges are oranges, and this is just how it is. So, here we go...
We began to examine the red Solstice. I have to admit, it is an attractive car. Its like Clarkson said about the Miura, it would look great in a garden. It has those lines that give it a muscular stance, smooth sheet metal stretched over the wheel arches, and a design that is completely all its own. It makes a statement (which statement we will cover later), and definitely looks the part of a sports car.
"Bob" leaned into the passenger side and pulled a lever (which BTW I couldn't find) and those two "winglets" shot up like a jack-in-the-box. He next opened the rear clamshell exposing the "Rear Compartment" (I would call it a trunk but lets not stretch the truth here...) "Bob" then released the top and folded it into the compartment, having to push several times down on it to get it to fold down enough to close the clamshell. As he was closing the lid, he said "You have to push down in the center of this (the lid) because over time this will bend." I thought... "Nice". Another thing I noticed was that the "winglets" were velcro sealed together along the top seam, logic didn't explain this but GM had placed 3M clear protectant around the holes for the "winglets" to keep inevitable scratches at bay.
There are a lot of exposed gadgetry and wires directly behind the seats on the inside of the rear compartment, something I took notice of. Leaking immediately sprung to mind. Top down, the Solstice was in its prime. The engine bay wasn't interesting enough to make mention of BUT I did notice that the engine wasn't as far back as I have become used to in recent years. GM did however place Bilsteins at all four corners, something I was very impressed with.
"Bob" seemed quite helpful at times. He explained that they have been buying Solstices off of other lots, that mostly women bought them, and that they had already sold 11. Of course 44Runner and I were playing good cop/bad cop - he the interested potential buyer and I ... the subjective know it all. But to demonstrate how knowledgable our "Bob" was, allow me to give you a few quotes.
-"What kind of car is that?" - as I drove up in my S
then
-"I'm sure your honda is a good car but this is a collector's item. They are only producing 7,000 a year" - Well, thats not far off from the S2000 "Bob"
We were given the keys and climbed in. 44Runner was up first. We looked over the interior, which 44Runner thought was of great design. He also said "Look at this" and proceeded to grab the corner of the center console cover and pull it inches off the console. I pushed the cup holder in to release it thats located in the passenger footwell. It opened about a quarter of an inch, then stuck. Prying it with my fingers, I got it open. The seats were comfortable but there is no "Lever" to adjust the seat but instead a large round knob, placed so awkwardly at first we didn't believe the seats were adjustable. There is NO storage space in this car, with the exception of the glovebox and center console simular to the one in the S2000. Another issue was the steering wheel. For 44Runner to properly place the steering wheel, he had cut his line of sight of the gauge cluster. The wheel arches directly through the speedo and tach.
Before we had even got out of the car lot, 44Runner was already complaining about the feel of the steering (or lack there of). We drove about 5 miles covering city streets, interstate on/of ramps, highways, and side streets and also did some passing, hard cornering, and casual cruising. Then it was my turn at the helm. I climbed in and we took off. immediately I knew what he was griping about. The steering was terrible, not only was there NO feedback, there was also 10 degrees of play off dead center. I wiggled the wheel back and forth, the car continued straight. A safety issue we had was that the side mirrors were absolutely useless, I mean useless.
The clutch was my biggest gripe. GM had actually managed to reverse engineer the feel of a clutch. First off, the clutch in both of our testers were extremely light (when I got back into my car, I had to use leg muscle for the first time). When you press the clutch in this car, what resistance there is to your foot fades quickly the farther you press the clutch. I actually had the car jerk on me a couple of times until I got used to it.
Rolling up to the first light, brakes felt adequate but what we both noted and commended GM on was the solid chassis of this car. It does feel solid without a rattle or bit of flex detectable. The light turned green and I took off for 60mph, kind of. For anyone who has ever wondered allow me to tell you. This car is SLOOOOOOWWWW. I haven't driven a car that not only is slow but also felt slower until them. It was so bad, I did it again to make sure.
I continued driving back to the dealership, noting the solid feel of the chassis yet complete numbness everywhere else. I also noted that for a car with so few miles it already had 5 scratches in the interior. The Solstice has no wind diffuser but one isn't necessary. Wind at highways speeds was less that that of the S2000 to give you an idea. The Solstice's stereo was loud enough at highways speeds to hear clearly thanks to speakers located just behind the door sill. Plus it has an I-pod input.
We returned the Solstice and went over some of our likes and dislikes with good ole' "Bob". I pointed out to 44Runner that this was a girl's car, which he kinda gawked at until I pointed out something... the vanity mirror is on the driver's side. He said "So".. to which I pointed out that the other night suzukabluegirl and I went to get something to eat and she was checking out her makeup while in my passenger seat.... Ah Ha! He agreed
Another thing I noticed was that there were pockets across the front of the seats. Imagine how saggy and hanging open those will be after a few thousand mile behind the wheel.When we got into my car, I said to 44Runner "Lets try out the new MX-5". We cut through the Ford lot (which had 2 Saleen Mustang's and 1 Roush) to Mazda. Here we met "The Dude". "The Dude" was a salesman in his ohh late 40s to mid 50s. This guy was a car guy. He was cool, and he knew his stuff. Apparently he had been selling Mazdas for a long time and atleast he knew what an S2000 was.
Anyway, I was the interested buyer. No bad cop this time. I owned an MX-5 SE in 2003, loved it. What made me hand over the keys was the lack of elbow room and power. The MX-5 is a dream when it comes to nimbleness. 44Runner has always given me sh** for owning that car, so I asked him if he had ever driven one. "Once" he said.
"The Dude" brought out the keys to my favorite new color combo.. the dark silver/brown combo. I told 44Runner "watch this" as I single handedly unlatched and lower the top into place... all from the driver seat! The interior was great, which we both agreed on. The piano black across the dash looked great. Also, storage. My gawd does this car have storage: in the doors, glove box, a trunk!, and two compartments behind the seats.
This car felt like a 30+ thousand dollar vehicle, the fitment was exact, usage of materials was light years beyond the Solstice.. and stitching... this was the first time I was actually excited about the stitchwork in a car!
What a difference.... before I had got off the lot, I could feel that this was a sports car. The steering was simply amazing; point and shoot. Everything I stated about the Solstice with the exception of the chassis rigidity was the exact opposite. The engine loves to rev, loves it. The seats are really comfortable, the body solid, the acceleration was impressive as well. I ripped through some gears and could tell I was in a completely different car. There was no possibility of mishap here, it was just so good I did it again, passing just over 7K rpm between shifts.
44Runner came to the same conclusion during his drive with the exception of the clutch. The MX-5 requires full extension of the clutch pedal before the clutch engages. Something easily fixed compared to the Solstice's handling and heavy duty transmission. Thats another thing. The transmission in the Solstice was tough, clunky, and had long throws despite its short appearance. The Mazda on the other hand was a jewel. Extremely sort, precise, and effortless. The Solstice's oversized gear knob was an unpleasant place for my smallish hands, but the Mazdas fit like a glove.
We returned the Mazda and summarized our comparo. I think 44Runner gained new respect for the MX-5. I put the top up, this time from the passenger seat. But this time there was a problem. With the top up, 44Runner's head touched the frame! He didn't fit! We talked about it and this is where we stood...
The Solstice:
The good:
-Exterior looks great
-Solid Structure
-Quite ride
-Good exhaust tone
-Large grippy tires
-Feels solid on the road
The bad:
-Interior is terrible, GM quality = poor materials
-Numb loose steering
-Clunky transmission/clutch
-Over elaborate top which will no doubt leak sooner than later
-"Market Value Adjustment"
-Pure lack of power, like I said this thing is ssslllooowww
The MX-5:
The Good:
-Steering feedback
-Amazing snick snick tranny
-High revving engine
-Easy top
-interior design
-quality quality quality
The bad:
-Clutch engagement point
-Tall people don't fit
-Exterior styling
-Thats it.....
I really wanted to be impressed by the Solstice. I wanted to be awed by it because I would love to see GM turn things around... but this was not it. The Solstice was a big disappointment. It had no go, was a pain to change gears in, and worst of all felt cheap.
The Mazda was polished and poised. Years of R & D put into it, making specific parts for the car that was shared with no other. The Solstice was a Frankenstein of parts from the GM parts bin, and it showed. The MX-5 could be had with superior: build quality, sportiness, handling, throttle response, top design (Mazda even designed a rain rail so you can open your window on rainy days without getting soaked), transmission, Bose seven speaker stereo, smart card keyless entry, HIDs, supportive stitched leather seats, roll bars, side and front airbags, acceleration, cornering, road manners, 4 cup holders that worked, interior design, storage, and a trunk for less than a Solstice with pleather, sat radio, power windows and locks!!! Not even a GXP model is going to be able to fix all of the wrongs with the Solstice.
The MX-5 tested came only without the smartcard keyless entry option and tipped the scale at just over $25,000 on the window.
The Solstices were listed at $24,000 with a "Market Adjustment" of an additional $5,200 dollars
, making the Solstice just over $29,000 dollars! I cannot for the life of me figure out how GM is justifying the money because within 20 miles it is easy to see Apple from the Orange. I pity anyone who buys a Solstice. I wanted to like that car, but it was truly disappointing. For my money, I'll take the MX-5.
If you don't believe me, I encourage you to try it yourself......
44Runner's write up on the MX-5 and Solstice
02-23-2006, 05:49 PM
#3
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Thread Starter
44Runner brought up the point that the GXP Solstice would have to be better than the MX-5... to which I countered we test the GXP against the Mazdaspeed MX-5. He agreed.
I can't see how he Sky would be any better as far as performance.
I can't see how he Sky would be any better as far as performance.
02-23-2006, 05:49 PM
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Very good write up! 
The new miata sounds like a very nice ride. After selling GM products for a while, your review on the Sol's interior sounds on par. That's too bad....I thought the Solstice is pretty cool.
The new miata sounds like a very nice ride. After selling GM products for a while, your review on the Sol's interior sounds on par. That's too bad....I thought the Solstice is pretty cool.
02-23-2006, 05:52 PM
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Thread Starter
Originally Posted by 4wheelVFR,Feb 23 2006, 09:49 PM
Very good write up! The new miata sounds like a very nice ride. After selling GM products for a while, your review on the Sol's interior sounds on par. That's too bad....I thought the Solstice is pretty cool.
The new miata sounds like a very nice ride. After selling GM products for a while, your review on the Sol's interior sounds on par. That's too bad....I thought the Solstice is pretty cool.
. The Solstice had just over 300 miles and the cup holder was shot!
02-23-2006, 05:57 PM
#6
Thanks for the write-up Mulder. Very detailed and thorough I thought. I agree with you about the Mazda brown interior. I saw it at the auto show up here and was very impressed with its look and feel. I would love to test out a Mazdaspeed MX-5; I have a lot of newfound respect for that car
02-23-2006, 05:59 PM
#7
Registered User
That's a great write up. It ended up just as I would have suspected. It would seem GM has some of the correct design features mastered for a car of this type, but the MX-5 has been around for so long, it has become nearly perfected. Your comments regarding the gearbox on the Mazda would fit with the previous generations. It's always been a jewel in the world of trannies. For me, I'm reversed on the styling. I like the smooth, contoured lines of the Mazda, but the out-there styling of the Pontiac is too much for me (what's with that grille?). Thanks for taking the time to post up the review.
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02-23-2006, 06:16 PM
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29k for the solstice wasnt that thing supposed to be like 18k when it came out. If that thing is 29k than the s2k should be 58k+. They should have called them solitude for all the ones that will remain unsold on the lot.