Cams that actually make power?
11-11-2014, 03:20 PM
#21
No date set yet.
Is there a need for good cams and a real demand or is it just a different market for s2000 ?
Not to sound like a pessimist but only people so far really interested in these cams are shops/middlemen/tuners that want access to a performance product in order to attract more business and there is certainly nothing wrong with that.
Its hard to gauge interest because people like to see results to believe. We have no doubt we can deliver unquestionable gains. I do have a doubt there is a market for a car that is not made anymore. You guys know better but I just call it as I see it.
I would like to hear more input from people and their opinions.
Is there a need for good cams and a real demand or is it just a different market for s2000 ?
Not to sound like a pessimist but only people so far really interested in these cams are shops/middlemen/tuners that want access to a performance product in order to attract more business and there is certainly nothing wrong with that.
Its hard to gauge interest because people like to see results to believe. We have no doubt we can deliver unquestionable gains. I do have a doubt there is a market for a car that is not made anymore. You guys know better but I just call it as I see it.
I would like to hear more input from people and their opinions.
11-11-2014, 08:57 PM
#23
Registered User
I am interested in data. I heard of IPS cams from the K-series days and they were enormous. I hope you succeed. The cam world is weak here so I suspect a low quantity run is all you can get. I don't mind testing the cams out too. There are 2 S2k Challenge guys locally on cams...one on BC Stage 2 and one on Hytech cams. 
11-12-2014, 09:39 AM
#25
Registered User
Originally Posted by 7rrivera7' timestamp='1415490513' post='23398341
What is the release date for these?
Is there a need for good cams and a real demand or is it just a different market for s2000 ?
Not to sound like a pessimist but only people so far really interested in these cams are shops/middlemen/tuners that want access to a performance product in order to attract more business and there is certainly nothing wrong with that.
Its hard to gauge interest because people like to see results to believe. We have no doubt we can deliver unquestionable gains. I do have a doubt there is a market for a car that is not made anymore. You guys know better but I just call it as I see it.
I would like to hear more input from people and their opinions.
People here are technical and passionate about making power.
Large amount of s2000 owners compete (track or drag), and since we as a community are pretty technical (unlike some of the EDM's
), cam installation doesn't scare us. And because we are passionate about keeping this car one of the highest N/A small displacements engines even higher, we'd like to support innovators such as yourself.Large amount of S2000's owners compete and win, this will be another tool to keep us competitive.
Can you improve on a already masterful design?
11-12-2014, 10:28 AM
#26
BC cams sell well in the s2000 community and they aren't even 100% proven.
People here are technical and passionate about making power.
Large amount of s2000 owners compete (track or drag), and since we as a community are pretty technical (unlike some of the EDM's ), cam installation doesn't scare us. And because we are passionate about keeping this car one of the highest N/A small displacements engines even higher, we'd like to support innovators such as yourself.
Large amount of S2000's owners compete and win, this will be another tool to keep us competitive.
Can you improve on a already masterful design?
People here are technical and passionate about making power.
Large amount of s2000 owners compete (track or drag), and since we as a community are pretty technical (unlike some of the EDM's
), cam installation doesn't scare us. And because we are passionate about keeping this car one of the highest N/A small displacements engines even higher, we'd like to support innovators such as yourself.Large amount of S2000's owners compete and win, this will be another tool to keep us competitive.
Can you improve on a already masterful design?
http://www.k20a.org/forum/showthread.php?t=108005
248 whp STD/243 whp SAE. Pretty impressive considering it was on a 70mm exhaust and pump 93 gasoline. I expect more or less the same results on an F20/22.
11-12-2014, 11:43 AM
#27
Thank you Brian.
Improving OEM profiles is not hard because OEM is focused more on producing a car than spending time on cam r&d. Cam profile design is a rare art and I consider myself extremely fortunate to have help from qualified engineers.
The most common method of "designing" cam profiles is through copying other profiles and "improving" them by changing the overall lift or duration of the lift curve but in reality this is what we refer as a hack because the second and third and 4th derivative are distorted causing tensioners to experience unusual jerk or valves to go through spikes in acceleration or velocity.
Real design you study OEM valve motion but you don't copy it. You use it to establish a model and design from scratch. Its the real wake up call when someone buys a $15000 cam design program like professor Blair's 4sthead program to realize that they don't have the ability to figure out the input data that is needed to produce an output. So copying is a lot easier but because cam doctors cannot read that much in detail when you are can doctoring a cam and are reading say from 22 cam degrees to 23 can degrees ,in reality you are reading 2 degrees of crank rotation.
So 1 cam degree = 2 crank degrees.
So when the cam doctor is reading 22.1 degrees its reporting it as 22/and then 22.5 and then 22.6 is like 22.5 and then 22.8 is like 23. Take into account the 2:1 ratio and there is a lot of fuzz that makes the.manufacturing of cams impossible simply based on a copied profile. That's why there are programs with smoothing functions that clear out that fuz by making the curves have smoother velocity, acceleration and jerk curves.
For those that do not know anything about these cam characteristics here's some basic information to comprehend.
Cam has a profile like lift and duration. This curve has lift numbers for every crankshaft degree.
The rate.of change between the lift of an angle to the next angle is equal to the velocity of the cam. The rate of change of the velocity of the cam is the acceleration and deceleration of the cam. The rate of the change of acceleration or deceleration is the jerk. That is basically what kills chains and tensioners.
Now even if you understand this the most. Important thing to understand is that cams and cam shapes and lobes do not make power. Its the valves that make power. So to come up with a good design we design the valve motion which is night and day with cam motion.
The famous roller ratio of 1.7x for s2000 engines is only valid at max lift. For every other point its not easy to calculate because the roller can has a very complex geometry.
So If you want to copy a cam that is a roller can or finger follower or we call them, you have to look at how the valve behaves and start from there. Its very hard to copy an exact cam mathematically .
OK so now I have a question for you guys. I will follow up with some pictures and hopefully we can agree to agree or disagree.
S2000 cams for intake and exhaust are very similar in dimensions. In fact they are identical except for a small difference.
What you see here is an OEM s2000 camshaft blank in was able to source from Honda Japan.
On one side the cams, both.of them have this notch for the cam gear to slide in.
On the other side of the can, opposite the where the cam gear gets attached, there is a small pin.
The relationship in orientation of the pin vs the notch is the only difference between the intake and exhaust cams.
Here are my 2 billet cores made from premium tool steel.
Harley Davidson cam used for them not to roll because I wanted to align the notches.
So when both cams intake and exhaust are aligned on one side on the other side we have a pin location at 3 o'clock or 90 degrees and a pin location at 180 degrees
My question to you is : are these pin locations critical to timing of the engine?
Can we use a set of cams with identical pin location or do we have to have them like OEM cams are set?
In kseries the ecu will bring an error engine code of the timing marks are messed up. I just do not know If the s2000 engines use these marks for timing or as they there for installation purpose only?
Reason why I am asking is because not would make my job easier making one part vs 2 different parts. I understand its just an extra hole at a different location but trying to see if if we could use on type of can for both intake and exhaust.
Of course another easy solution would be to drill 2 holes and use one for intake and another for exhaust when needed! Lol I just thought about this as I am writing this message lmao
Still out of curiosity I am interested to hear what you guys think.
Here's the billets vs the OEM iron core
Here s the custom can plate we use to grind the s2000 cam. Simple part but very very important since without it a core cannot be ground and held in position.
More Harley cams
Man the 2 hole idea rocks! B)
Improving OEM profiles is not hard because OEM is focused more on producing a car than spending time on cam r&d. Cam profile design is a rare art and I consider myself extremely fortunate to have help from qualified engineers.
The most common method of "designing" cam profiles is through copying other profiles and "improving" them by changing the overall lift or duration of the lift curve but in reality this is what we refer as a hack because the second and third and 4th derivative are distorted causing tensioners to experience unusual jerk or valves to go through spikes in acceleration or velocity.
Real design you study OEM valve motion but you don't copy it. You use it to establish a model and design from scratch. Its the real wake up call when someone buys a $15000 cam design program like professor Blair's 4sthead program to realize that they don't have the ability to figure out the input data that is needed to produce an output. So copying is a lot easier but because cam doctors cannot read that much in detail when you are can doctoring a cam and are reading say from 22 cam degrees to 23 can degrees ,in reality you are reading 2 degrees of crank rotation.
So 1 cam degree = 2 crank degrees.
So when the cam doctor is reading 22.1 degrees its reporting it as 22/and then 22.5 and then 22.6 is like 22.5 and then 22.8 is like 23. Take into account the 2:1 ratio and there is a lot of fuzz that makes the.manufacturing of cams impossible simply based on a copied profile. That's why there are programs with smoothing functions that clear out that fuz by making the curves have smoother velocity, acceleration and jerk curves.
For those that do not know anything about these cam characteristics here's some basic information to comprehend.
Cam has a profile like lift and duration. This curve has lift numbers for every crankshaft degree.
The rate.of change between the lift of an angle to the next angle is equal to the velocity of the cam. The rate of change of the velocity of the cam is the acceleration and deceleration of the cam. The rate of the change of acceleration or deceleration is the jerk. That is basically what kills chains and tensioners.
Now even if you understand this the most. Important thing to understand is that cams and cam shapes and lobes do not make power. Its the valves that make power. So to come up with a good design we design the valve motion which is night and day with cam motion.
The famous roller ratio of 1.7x for s2000 engines is only valid at max lift. For every other point its not easy to calculate because the roller can has a very complex geometry.
So If you want to copy a cam that is a roller can or finger follower or we call them, you have to look at how the valve behaves and start from there. Its very hard to copy an exact cam mathematically .
OK so now I have a question for you guys. I will follow up with some pictures and hopefully we can agree to agree or disagree.
S2000 cams for intake and exhaust are very similar in dimensions. In fact they are identical except for a small difference.
What you see here is an OEM s2000 camshaft blank in was able to source from Honda Japan.
On one side the cams, both.of them have this notch for the cam gear to slide in.
On the other side of the can, opposite the where the cam gear gets attached, there is a small pin.
The relationship in orientation of the pin vs the notch is the only difference between the intake and exhaust cams.
Here are my 2 billet cores made from premium tool steel.
Harley Davidson cam used for them not to roll because I wanted to align the notches.
So when both cams intake and exhaust are aligned on one side on the other side we have a pin location at 3 o'clock or 90 degrees and a pin location at 180 degrees
My question to you is : are these pin locations critical to timing of the engine?
Can we use a set of cams with identical pin location or do we have to have them like OEM cams are set?
In kseries the ecu will bring an error engine code of the timing marks are messed up. I just do not know If the s2000 engines use these marks for timing or as they there for installation purpose only?
Reason why I am asking is because not would make my job easier making one part vs 2 different parts. I understand its just an extra hole at a different location but trying to see if if we could use on type of can for both intake and exhaust.
Of course another easy solution would be to drill 2 holes and use one for intake and another for exhaust when needed! Lol I just thought about this as I am writing this message lmao
Still out of curiosity I am interested to hear what you guys think.
Here's the billets vs the OEM iron core
Here s the custom can plate we use to grind the s2000 cam. Simple part but very very important since without it a core cannot be ground and held in position.
More Harley cams
Man the 2 hole idea rocks! B)
11-12-2014, 02:14 PM
#28
With aem ems only one cam sensor is used
Looking forward to your cams
Got bc2 cam and it split a roller
Ap1
Aem v2 ems
Bc2 stage 2 cam+dual spring
70mm TB modded air box 3.5" short ram
Skunk2 Megapower header 76mm single exhaust
No cat
Car make 218whp/150 wtq
Looking forward to your cams
Got bc2 cam and it split a roller
Ap1
Aem v2 ems
Bc2 stage 2 cam+dual spring
70mm TB modded air box 3.5" short ram
Skunk2 Megapower header 76mm single exhaust
No cat
Car make 218whp/150 wtq
11-12-2014, 02:55 PM
#29
From what I understand, the rocker arm ratio is the same (similar) between the F20C and almost all of the K series heads. There have been a few guys that have installed the K series Ferrea rocker arms in their F series motors.
If you want to be able to sell cams, you have to prove they make power. Our community has been burned so many times before with false promises. We haven't had much support from the aftermarket industry regarding camshafts, so everyone is under the (false) impression that OEM S2000 cams cannot be improved upon. The problem is... we haven't had many credible cam companies step up and design cams. TODA and BC. That's it.
If you've already done all of the leg work by measuring the OEM valve movement, it only seems logical that you should start cutting some profiles and testing. You've already done most of the hard work from the sound of it.
If you want to be able to sell cams, you have to prove they make power. Our community has been burned so many times before with false promises. We haven't had much support from the aftermarket industry regarding camshafts, so everyone is under the (false) impression that OEM S2000 cams cannot be improved upon. The problem is... we haven't had many credible cam companies step up and design cams. TODA and BC. That's it.
If you've already done all of the leg work by measuring the OEM valve movement, it only seems logical that you should start cutting some profiles and testing. You've already done most of the hard work from the sound of it.
11-12-2014, 04:34 PM
#30
Registered User
Like many have said it the cams make power I'm sure you wouldn't have a problem selling them even if they were double the price of your average cam as power gains don't really come easy in an all motor application. Let's start grinding some cams and testing 