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Stock class SCCA autocross rules/class changes 2014 & 2015 So where do we go from here?

#1 User is offline   austincrx 

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 09:29 PM

Not sure if you all have heard this yet, but if you're into autocrossing your S2k, you probably know already. That being said, I'll just outline some key things:
1. Tire allowances are changing so that by 2015 you will have to use 200+ UTQG treadwear rated tires
2. Swaybars are basically free!! stock, removed, totally completely modified, it's all legal in 2015 (2014?).
3. Rules about shocks are changing, but not until 2015. Double adjustable, yes. External reservoir, NO!
4. Other rule changes, but you can look that up for yourselves now that your interest is sparked (but the CR's will now be in A-stock, which will be changed to A-street, but still called 'AS').


With # 3 in mind (the shock changes), what are the major non-external double adjustable shocks out there? Currently the big names are JRZ, Ohlins, Penske, Moton, and Koni (others?). Obviously valving is everything for autocross, but it sounds like if you run Ohlins, Penskes, or Motons then you will have to change by 2015, or switch classes due to the reservoir rule. Does this mean the JRZ's or Koni's will be the way to go?

I am in the market for shocks for 2014. Not wanting to get something that will be useless for me in one year, I plan to go with the Konis (but I'm open to others). I am planning to do some pro solo events, GA and Colorado to be specific, maybe more if all goes well. Knowing all of this, where does one acquire a set of Konis valved specifically for Stock class autocross and a 2002 S2000? I am looking for a company/group that already has the knowledge about how to valve the shocks for autocross, not a company that is going to require me to supply a lot of information that I don't have access to. This is the last 'big' modification for the car being that I have the big front bar (though that may change with the new rules), tires, and aggressive brake pads.



Thank you in advance!


P.S. Are there any other manufacturers to offer double adjustable non-external shocks that are/can be valved for autocross? I have seen a little bit about Motion Suspension, anyone have experience? They seem kind of pricey, is the performance worth it, are we talking 0.100 or less seconds improvement or is it more like 0.500 seconds improvement?

This post has been edited by austincrx: 30 October 2013 - 09:35 PM

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#2 User is offline   CKit 

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 10:15 PM

Dunno if you're seeing something I'm not.

Last I heard, shock rules didn't change from stock. There was a proposal earlier about external reservoirs, but I didn't think that went through (was retracted fairly early on).

Swaybars are not free. You still only get one choice. Either front or rear modification.

Also you're missing the other two key changes.

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 12:55 AM

Sounds like you're looking at a six month-old version of the proposal that eventually became the Street classes.

The actual official 2014 rules can be viewed here: http://scca.cdn.race...ack-nov-BoD.pdf. 2 and 3 from your list above didn't make the final cut.

The thread on this forum where the changes are being discussed is here: http://www.s2ki.com/...info-on-street.
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#4 User is offline   austincrx 

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 11:24 AM

 PedalFaster, on 31 October 2013 - 12:55 AM, said:

Sounds like you're looking at a six month-old version of the proposal that eventually became the Street classes.

The actual official 2014 rules can be viewed here: http://scca.cdn.race...ack-nov-BoD.pdf. 2 and 3 from your list above didn't make the final cut.

The thread on this forum where the changes are being discussed is here: http://www.s2ki.com/...info-on-street.


Thanks for the update, I didn't realize the changes were still pending review. So what I am seeing and understanding is that the only real changes are now going to be +-1" tire DIAMETER (width cannot change, which sucks for people driving AP1's as 6.5" front wheels are hard to find usually) and the treadwear/tire issue: 140 in 2014, 200 in 2015. Guess I will be sticking with stock shocks until I can constitute spending $4000 on a set.

Does anyone else not understand why 'stock (street)' class means you can spend $4000 on shocks, but not do small changes like a strut bar? I thought part of the reason we even had 'stock' class was so that people who were new to autocross or who didn't want to spend a great deal of money on modifying their cars could run and compete. Now it seems that you need to spend a large portion of your yearly salary just to compete in a class that is considered 'stock'!!!

Maybe I'll just skip the autocrossing and go straight to the track. It's only a little bit more expensive to get all the safety items anyway!


(sorry for the rant)

This post has been edited by austincrx: 31 October 2013 - 11:24 AM


#5 User is offline   IntegraR0064 

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 12:22 PM

 austincrx, on 31 October 2013 - 11:24 AM, said:

 PedalFaster, on 31 October 2013 - 12:55 AM, said:

Sounds like you're looking at a six month-old version of the proposal that eventually became the Street classes.

The actual official 2014 rules can be viewed here: http://scca.cdn.race...ack-nov-BoD.pdf. 2 and 3 from your list above didn't make the final cut.

The thread on this forum where the changes are being discussed is here: http://www.s2ki.com/...info-on-street.


Thanks for the update, I didn't realize the changes were still pending review. So what I am seeing and understanding is that the only real changes are now going to be +-1" tire DIAMETER (width cannot change, which sucks for people driving AP1's as 6.5" front wheels are hard to find usually) and the treadwear/tire issue: 140 in 2014, 200 in 2015. Guess I will be sticking with stock shocks until I can constitute spending $4000 on a set.

Does anyone else not understand why 'stock (street)' class means you can spend $4000 on shocks, but not do small changes like a strut bar? I thought part of the reason we even had 'stock' class was so that people who were new to autocross or who didn't want to spend a great deal of money on modifying their cars could run and compete. Now it seems that you need to spend a large portion of your yearly salary just to compete in a class that is considered 'stock'!!!

Maybe I'll just skip the autocrossing and go straight to the track. It's only a little bit more expensive to get all the safety items anyway!


(sorry for the rant)


You don't need to spend $4000 on shocks. Not to mention if you did the $4000 you could sell down the line for most of what you paid for it so the $4000 is more an investment than a cost, but even if you don't have $4000...you don't need to do it. People have been close to winning national championships on stock shocks. That means at the bare minimum you should be able to win anything outside of a national championship.

The reason they don't allow strut bars is that every allowance you get means you have to do that allowance. On one hand you're complaining about too many costs but then you want more allowances? If you allowed a strut bar then you'd have to buy a strut bar too (although maybe not because it doesn't do anything on an s2k but that's beside the point). There's no good reason to allow strut bars.

Shocks wear out, so they have to allow shock replacement. If your beef is that the shock rule changed back to stock rules instead of the proposed early one you read, then you must understand canisters are irrelevant. You can get shocks that are just as good without canisters as the ones with canisters, except they're usually more expensive without canisters. There's no good way to write a shock rule unfortunately while not allowing the super serious people to spend gobs of money on shocks.
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#6 User is offline   iamxpL 

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 12:29 PM

you dont necessarily need 4000 shocks to be competitive in street class stock. or RT. revlaved koni's have proven themselves and some have stuck with stock shocks or upgraded to the CR bodies. and regarding a bar, you can easily go with a 300 dollar bar and not have to spend 1k plus on a gendron or ARE sway bars. but most will since they might want the adjust-ability for when they move up to a different class that might require more bar. some people spent money on penske shocks because they had the money and want best of the best. but thats on a totally different level where you are chasing tenths. it seems you are rather new to the sport like i am. this is my first year. you can get a lot more improvement just with seat time. i ran stock shocks in RT class for a year and i was not far off from the podium winners (in my local region).

as for the wheel size i agree AP1 guys still have it hard.

IMHO i think road course track days will ultimately be more expensive. youll burn more fuel, pads and rotors will take a beating etc.

i drive an ap2v2. the softest of the 3 models. 4 if you count the CR by itself.

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#7 User is offline   CKit 

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 01:15 PM

The thing about swaybars is that if you can adjust both sways, you can fake spring rate and get crazy stiff front and rear bars that would make cars undrivable and unlivable.

By only doing one, you are limiting what you can do without totally screwing stuff up. If you want to do both, just go STR.

#8 User is offline   ConeKiller2 

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 08:51 PM

FYI 2008 national champion Greg Hahn won on stock shocks and $200 saner bar!

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#9 User is offline   CKit 

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 09:05 PM

How many jackets has he won since then? Times have changed a lot since.

#10 User is offline   iamxpL 

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 07:44 AM

competition has definitely gotten stiffer and the tuning of the s2000 has progressed quite a bit. in no way am i discrediting the man im sure he is a talented driver. but you dont wanna go into a gun fight with a knife.

to the op, autocross can be as competitive as you want it to be or as fun as you want it to be. you just need to decide how much you want to participate.

#11 User is offline   austincrx 

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 12:31 PM

I'm not new to the sport, newer than some, but more experienced than others. I've been doing this for 9 years now. My beef is similar to alot of others' I have heard from: I really want to race, I really want to compete, but I can't afford to be competetive. It seems like that was one reason for creating the 'street' class in the first place. I know they made up some 'bs' about how the R-comps drastically change the handling charasteristics of the vehicle so that it isn't the same as a 'stock' vehicle. While that is all well and true in some cases, you have to realize that the RT classes grew for a reason, and they grew quickly. Maybe it was that the tires were cheaper, therefore the cost of running was cheaper. Maybe it was because some cars had an advantage and others didn't when on 'street' tires, it's all very individualized, but we all have to agree that there are probably a LOT of people at your local events that would be more attracted to the sport if there was a way for them to run competetively on a much smaller budget. It just so happens that I'm kind-a in the same boat.

All this being said, I am glad to hear that some cars (or drivers!) are competetive on stock shocks. That atleast gives me hope that the car *should* be somewhat competetive being that it has all the other mods for street class. Now I just need to continue my own improvements, as well as get some better tires (Kumho XS's that have a production date in 2008 are not exactly the stickiest or softest out there).

This post has been edited by austincrx: 01 November 2013 - 12:33 PM


#12 User is offline   IntegraR0064 

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 01:00 PM

 austincrx, on 01 November 2013 - 12:31 PM, said:

I'm not new to the sport, newer than some, but more experienced than others. I've been doing this for 9 years now. My beef is similar to alot of others' I have heard from: I really want to race, I really want to compete, but I can't afford to be competetive. It seems like that was one reason for creating the 'street' class in the first place. I know they made up some 'bs' about how the R-comps drastically change the handling charasteristics of the vehicle so that it isn't the same as a 'stock' vehicle. While that is all well and true in some cases, you have to realize that the RT classes grew for a reason, and they grew quickly. Maybe it was that the tires were cheaper, therefore the cost of running was cheaper. Maybe it was because some cars had an advantage and others didn't when on 'street' tires, it's all very individualized, but we all have to agree that there are probably a LOT of people at your local events that would be more attracted to the sport if there was a way for them to run competetively on a much smaller budget. It just so happens that I'm kind-a in the same boat.

All this being said, I am glad to hear that some cars (or drivers!) are competetive on stock shocks. That atleast gives me hope that the car *should* be somewhat competetive being that it has all the other mods for street class. Now I just need to continue my own improvements, as well as get some better tires (Kumho XS's that have a production date in 2008 are not exactly the stickiest or softest out there).


That's the awesome thing about street class. Get some good tires on there and a sway bar and you will be competitive. As long as whoever is winning your local region isn't the reigning national champ, you should be able to beat them even if their shocks are better than yours.

Maybe in the meantime you can start saving up cash for some konis or something so that eventually you can do that upgrade.

I think the best thing you can do in a lot of cases is get somebody really fast in your car. That will give you a great idea, no bs, of how fast your car is. Autocross is all about the driver generally. Even most national champions are leaving a decent amount of time out there. It's a little bit depressing actually when I go from my fully prepped for STR car with $$$ shocks and everything into a relative newbie's car with basically tires and that's it or maybe a sway bar and my times are really a lot closer than you'd think...

#13 User is offline   CKit 

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 01:52 PM

And custom valved shocks are not as necessary when you're on street tires because too stuff will shock the tires.

Take RTA / DS WRX. Most people run OTS Konis because nobody makes a good DA shock. There are still stock shock trophy winners in that class.

"Affording to be competitive" is often a matter of how crappy of a car you're willing to drive....

Plenty of ST* co-drives available at reasonable prices.

#14 User is offline   s2kreeper 

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 02:40 PM

I'm glad to see stock getting back closer to actually stock cars, but they should just leave it at "All OEM equipment".

#15 User is offline   CKit 

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 03:37 PM

The whole point was: "what do you do when your 12 year old 120,000 mile car needs new shocks and they've discontinued the model or OEM prices are just silly?"

Replacing worn OEM shocks with new ones costs more than the TC Kline DAs.

#16 User is offline   IntegraR0064 

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 03:42 PM

Not to mention that OEM shocks vary quite a bit so the guy who wants to spend $4k on street class could easily still spend $4k blueprinting a batch of OEM shocks and matching up the best ones and end up spending much more with much less to show for it.

And then since he can't do a cheap rebuild like you can with normal racing shocks, he'd end up having to do it again every year to keep things fresh.

The people who will spend anything at the very top will do so no matter what the rules are.

#17 User is online   darcyw 

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Posted 02 November 2013 - 07:23 PM

Interesting conversation.

I too am in the the AP1 street stock rim debate. So last night i spent many hours researching other rims.

GM has some 53 mm offset, 17x6.5 options, BUT, the bolt pattern is 5x115, not 5x114.3. Maybe grind out the bolt holes? maybe crash then?

i haven't found any great options...yet.

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#18 User is offline   CKit 

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Posted 02 November 2013 - 10:57 PM

Mazda wheels.

#19 User is offline   iamxpL 

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Posted 02 November 2013 - 11:27 PM

believe the options were being covered in another thread dont think we ever got finished with that conversation. but yes mazda wheels.

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Posted 03 November 2013 - 01:30 PM

 darcyw, on 02 November 2013 - 07:23 PM, said:

GM has some 53 mm offset, 17x6.5 options, BUT, the bolt pattern is 5x115, not 5x114.3. Maybe grind out the bolt holes? maybe crash then?

That's... not a good idea.

Search for the right width and bolt pattern first. Offset if much more easily and safely fixed than bolt pattern.

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 11:01 AM

 iamxpL, on 02 November 2013 - 11:27 PM, said:

believe the options were being covered in another thread dont think we ever got finished with that conversation. but yes mazda wheels.


Can you steer me to the other thread? From the 2-27-14 Solo Rules:
13.4WHEELS

Anytype wheel may be used provided it complies with the following:

A. Itis the same width as standard and as installed it does not have an offset morethan ±¼” (±6.35mm) from a standard wheel for the car. The resultant change intrack dimensions is allowed.

B.Wheel (rim) diameter may be increased or decreased 1” from the standard part.


So my AP1 will be allowed to run 1" bigger wheels (17"), but I have to keep the width the same. So, I need to find 17" x 6.5" wheels for the front and 17" x 7.5" for the rear. Anyone have a clue where to find those (TireRack and Discount, and a few others have none). Is this a customm wheel I'd need? And would it really be that beneficial, since the tire width I can do is based on the rim width.

#22 User is offline   iamxpL 

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 11:10 AM

it the mazda 3 wheels. they are good for the fronts since they will be 17x6.5 and you can use AP2 front wheels as your rears. I may be wrong hopefully someone chimes in for you. have you explored just staying with your stock wheels and running the 225 square set up that most have done?

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 12:53 PM

 iamxpL, on 17 March 2014 - 11:10 AM, said:

it the mazda 3 wheels. they are good for the fronts since they will be 17x6.5 and you can use AP2 front wheels as your rears. I may be wrong hopefully someone chimes in for you. have you explored just staying with your stock wheels and running the 225 square set up that most have done?


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#24 User is offline   iamxpL 

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 02:21 PM

^^ theres your answer. thats gonna be such an oddball size to look for. i know its a dead horse but let the AP1's run the Ap2 wheels!

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Posted 19 March 2014 - 01:38 PM

 ConeKiller2, on 31 October 2013 - 08:51 PM, said:

FYI 2008 national champion Greg Hahn won on stock shocks and $200 saner bar! Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk



 CKit, on 31 October 2013 - 09:05 PM, said:

How many jackets has he won since then? Times have changed a lot since.



 iamxpL, on 01 November 2013 - 07:44 AM, said:

competition has definitely gotten stiffer and the tuning of the s2000 has progressed quite a bit. in no way am i discrediting the man im sure he is a talented driver. but you dont wanna go into a gun fight with a knife.to the op, autocross can be as competitive as you want it to be or as fun as you want it to be. you just need to decide how much you want to participate.



Greg Hahn was the only guy in an s2000 CR in 2008. The fact the he won on stock shocks and a saner bar is a "little" misleading. :) Greg drove great though, and he deserves it, not to mention that I love Greg, and have gotten beers with him more than once in Lincoln. He is a talented driver with many years of experience.

With that in mind, the competitive landscape of SCCA Solo has changed alot since 2008, when I did my first ever autocross. Up to 2013, with some of the best drivers in all of SCCA Solo competing in BS and most other stock classes, you aren't winning on stock shocks. No Solo or Pro Solo championship has been won on stockers since then in BS. This also has to do with the fact that shock technology continues to improve, and the performance benefits continue to incremetally improve as well. As the talent pool deepens, the hardware beneath you becomes more a factor.

Now, this year the talent pool in the street classes is going to be signficantly lower than in previous years at nationals compared to normal stock classes. Not saying there won't be fast guys but there will be alot of guys that will win a jacket in their street class this year that would be mid packers in a class like SSR, STR/X/U and many of the prepared and modifed classes. There may very well be winners on stock shocks this year - but I doubt it. With time however, the street classes will begin to repopulate with top drivers, and more big $$$ setups, and it will return to "par for the course." Except now, instead of just buying a set or two of sticker Hoosiers for nats, you have to test 5 different tire brands to see what is fastest for your car, and what size is best, etc...
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