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Double Wishbone Suspension What cars besides Honda have it??

#1 User is offline   Silverstreak HX 

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 12:21 PM

Ah yes the day is here when it is time to set the record straight ! Several years ago I read an article in which was said that Honda said their Double Wishbone design is F1 derived and another idiot here thinks I said Honda invented it.
So here is proof of what I said is true! Page 54 of the NSX book by Brian Long has an early NSX brochure reprinted with the article on that page about Suspension.
In that article it said" The goal was to make a car that is a responsive and willing ally of the driver instead of a machine that has to be coaxed into going fast. "
"To accomplish this the resarch staff borrowed a page from FORMULA ONE TECHNOLOGY and developed an upper and lower control arm or double wishbone design for both front and rear suspensions. "
This is what I said all along Honda's double wishbone design is F1 derived ! Their words not mine! :hello:
Some other cars have a double wishbone design but I am not sure which ones they are . Anybody know which ones???

#2 User is offline   WolfpackS2k 

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 12:25 PM

 Silverstreak HX, on 18 November 2011 - 12:21 PM, said:

Ah yes the day is here when it is time to set the record straight ! Several years ago I read an article in which was said that Honda said their Double Wishbone design is F1 derived and another idiot here thinks I said Honda invented it.
So here is proof of what I said is true! Page 54 of the NSX book by Brian Long has an early NSX brochure reprinted with the article on that page about Suspension.
In that article it said" The goal was to make a car that is a responsive and willing ally of the driver instead of a machine that has to be coaxed into going fast. "
"To accomplish this the resarch staff borrowed a page from FORMULA ONE TECHNOLOGY and developed an upper and lower control arm or double wishbone design for both front and rear suspensions. "
This is what I said all along Honda's double wishbone design is F1 derived ! Their words not mine! :hello:
Some other cars have a double wishbone design but I am not sure which ones they are . Anybody know which ones???


There are tons and tons of cars with a double wishbone suspension design. It would take a while to list them all. Of course do you know what doesn't have a double wishbone design anymore? The Civic :(
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#3 User is offline   Mr.E.G. 

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 01:33 PM

This is your attempt to set the record straight; by revealing the complete depths of your ignorance? At first I thought Rockville was maybe being a little harsh on you, but you clearly are ignorant on this subject matter.

Yes, they use wishbone suspension on Formula 1 cars, but if you have any understanding of suspension geometry at all (let alone the other vehicle systems that work in unison with a F1 car's suspension) then it should be painfully obvious that they the statements you are quoted are hyperbole.

Wishbone suspension designs are not exclusive to F1, they pre date anything that remotely resembles a modern (even by 1980's standards) F1 car, and are not a simple "one size fits all" application by any stretch of the imagination. To say that a car has wishbone suspension is like saying that a car has an internal combustion engine. There are still a million variations upon variations. And just the same way that if Honda was to put a V10 into a production car, that would be vaguely similar to the v10 that they used in F1, but only to the extent that it has the same basic arrangement; everything about the engine (the size of the pistons, the material of the pistons, the material of the block, the valvetrain assembly, the oiling system, everything) would be entirely dissimilar between the F1 version and the road going version, yet Honda would clearly capitalize on the relationship.

What wishbone suspension means in practical terms is that you have an upper control arm "system" (I say system because the control arms do not actually have to look like a wishbone shape at all in order to still be a wishbone suspension) and a lower control arm system which each produce their own arcs independent of one another and have a collective resultant arc that is formed from their combined arcs which, in conjunction with a symmetrical system on the other side of the car and in relation to certain relative dimensions of the vehicle, create a geometric anomaly about which the vehicle's mass rolls.

There are an infinite number of variables such that any significant departure from the basic layout of one design relative to another will result in two entirely different systems that are only alike in that they are both technically wishbone setups. For instance, if you take the rear subframe from a Corvette (which has a wishbone suspension setup), cut it in half, and put the left and right side suspension assemblies on chassis two different chassis of different width, you have effectively changed the suspension geometry! So even though each side still has the exact same camber curves, etc., the fact that the track width relative to the suspension arcs is different will have considerable impact on how the suspension geometry works in each of the two vehicles, and that is just from changing a single variable. In doing so, all of the setup data that you have about the first car is different from that of the second car. In other words, even when the suspension links are the same length, the pickup points identical, the camber curves the same, the caster the same, the uprights identical, etc. you still end up with what is, geometrically speaking, two dissimilar systems that are, again, only similar in that they are both wishbone setups.

Now imagine the degree of dissimilarity when you start talking about different length wishbones (control arms) different camber curves, so on an so forth.

Then you have to consider the considerable differences between the intended use of a road car or an F1 car. The F1 car (particularly one of the 80's) will have suspension that is really undermined in almost every appreciable way such that it favors a stable and consistent aerodynamic setup. For instance, these cars employ spring frequencies in the 1000 hz range (which means that the suspension is practically incompressible), an inch or less of suspension travel, etc.

In other words, any data obtained from F1 racing in terms of wishbone suspension design would be 100% non-applicable to any road car. However, and this is a big however, those who master the multitude of adjustments within such a narrow window of operation and in a field where a 10th of a second improvement in lap times is an eternity (read: in the competitive field of F1 racing) will certainly be well qualified to design a wishbone suspension setup for a sporty road car. There is a trickle down of expertise and of creative engineering, much the same way that a NAVY seal would make a good SWAT team officer. Better yet, it's analogous to the way that a defense manufacturer who builds fighter jets would have the skills to "effortlessly" make great single-seater airplanes, but just like Honda, the defense contractor may allude to the fact that their expertise and technology in building top of the line machinery may provide them a competitive edge in designing lower end equipment (the halo car effect, if you will), but also like Honda, the defense contractor is not going to actually use fighter plane technology or parts in their single-seater, just as Honda did not literally adapt formula technology or equipment into the NSX.

I am a huge fan of the NSX and it is a great car; maybe even my favorite. But to believe the hyperbolic ramblings of a Honda spokesperson and to ignore the wealth of knowledge that is available regarding the history, application, and theoretical elements of wishbone suspension design simply illustrates that you've got your blinders on or are just willfully ignorant on the subject, and therefore, are not qualified to make any "see, I told you so" type of posts. :hello:

#4 User is offline   R1_Pilot 

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 01:44 PM

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#5 User is offline   Mr.E.G. 

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 01:52 PM

I'm really having a hard time not making fun of you here. I'm trying though... I'm really trying.

#6 User is offline   Silverstreak HX 

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 02:45 PM

 Mr.E.G., on 18 November 2011 - 01:52 PM, said:

I'm really having a hard time not making fun of you here. I'm trying though... I'm really trying.


I can't figure out why you idiots are getting bent out of shape because this is what HONDA CLAIMS that the NSX double wishbone design was derived from the F1 car . What exactly that means is up to some interpretation. I am just REPEATING WHAT HONDA CLAIMS which means to me their version is based off the race car suspension modified to work on a road car !
It is in the NSX book that HONDA says that their double wishbone suspension is F1 derived so if you don't like it write Honda and tell them that you believe that their claim is BULLSHIT marketing! Let's see what they say?

#7 User is offline   R1_Pilot 

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 02:47 PM

 Mr.E.G., on 18 November 2011 - 01:52 PM, said:

I'm really having a hard time not making fun of you here. I'm trying though... I'm really trying.


Go for it.

#8 User is offline   Mr.E.G. 

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 03:13 PM

We're the idiots because we actually understand the subject matter enough to have a conversation about it (I assume you are referring to me and Rockville who has yet joined the party), yet you're the one who is duped by marketing lingo? Ok, buddy.

There is a recent Acura commercial where Honda claims that the TSX wagon is built on a sports car chassis, or some such nonsense. Honda is a company that sells cars, first and foremost. Like most companies, they are all too willing to play off of people like you who can't see where the line is blurred by such statements. Additionally, you suck at quoting since the Honda rep says one quote, and the rest of what you mention is presumably the words of the author of the book, so no, it definitely doesn't look like that is what Honda is saying. You are misinterpreting the author's liberal adaptation of the intention of a quote.

Think of it like this. If they were talking about VTEC, they may very well say something along the lines of, "Honda wanted an engine that produced useable high end power, so they borrowed a page from their F1 program and came up with VTEC." That merely implies that they knew they needed variable valve timing in order for an engine to make power across a broad RPM range. VTEC is another way of accomplishing the same basic goal that they may have in an F1 engine, but they didn't get VTEC from their F1 program, since variable valve timing is addressed in a completely different way in F1. However, in their F1 program they did probably learn a great deal about variable valve timing, and they could use that understanding to create a lower-end system, but that does not mean that they literally applied F1 technology.

Do F1 cars and the NSX both use wishbone suspension setup? Yes. Are the same type of wishbone suspension? Nope. Not even close.

Again, if you believe for one second that the NSX suspension is adapted from F1 suspension, all you are doing is revealing that you don't know enough to have this conversation. You are making some sort of literal interpretation of what they allegedly said and trying to somehow prove a point, yet you're just making yourself look like a bigger goddamn idiot than we already thought you were.

Like I said, Honda's engineers that worked in their F1 program would certainly have gained experience and knowledge that can trickle down to the NSX, but the NSX's suspension is so radically different in design and the intended use of the car so unbelievably different in intent that nary a single F1 suspension component would be useful on the NSX.

#9 User is offline   Mr.E.G. 

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 03:15 PM

 Silverstreak HX, on 18 November 2011 - 02:45 PM, said:

 Mr.E.G., on 18 November 2011 - 01:52 PM, said:

I'm really having a hard time not making fun of you here. I'm trying though... I'm really trying.


I can't figure out why you idiots are getting bent out of shape because this is what HONDA CLAIMS that the NSX double wishbone design was derived from the F1 car . What exactly that means is up to some interpretation. I am just REPEATING WHAT HONDA CLAIMS which means to me their version is based off the race car suspension modified to work on a road car !
It is in the NSX book that HONDA says that their double wishbone suspension is F1 derived so if you don't like it write Honda and tell them that you believe that their claim is BULLSHIT marketing! Let's see what they say?



That's the thing though, it seems clear that you are taking the author's words and quoting them as if it came from the horse's mouth. Not to mention all of the other points I've mention over and over.

#10 User is offline   Mr.E.G. 

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 03:19 PM

And to answer your original question, there are literally HUNDREDS of non-Hondas that have used double wishbone suspension. Again, the fact that you don't seem to even understand that is staggering.

#11 User is offline   rockville 

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 04:05 PM

Silver, I appreciate that you aren't threatening to wrestle me while covered with oil or suggesting that we compare anatomy. It's also good that you aren't trying to tempt us with a seductive avatar. It's good that we will keep this related to the topic.

What you said a long time ago wasn't that Honda took what they learned on the track and applied it to the NSX. What you actually said was "Did Vtec,Pgm-FI,and double wishbone design not come from Honda's F1 program in the 80's?" Basically, you asked me to deny that Honda's F1 program resulted in those inventions.
http://www.s2ki.com/...93#entry6028093

I'm really not sure how to confuse that statement. Anyway, I have no doubt that people who touched Honda's F1 program in the 80s also touched the NSX program. Do keep in mind that the 1980s F1 cars with Honda's name were not "Hondas". They were English cars powered by Honda. Still, Honda's engines were to be commended. As for the history of double wishbone suspension, well it appears that Packard was the first in 1935. Honda wasn't a big player in the US market back then. To be fair, that older design used a separate kingpin and A-arm pivots unlike the ball joints we have today. I'm not sure who was the first to use ball joints rather than a separate kingpin.

Your article doesn't actually say Honda invented wishbone suspension, a fact that is easy to disprove given that the design existed before Honda made cars. It does say that Honda used that design for the NSX.

The language of the quote makes it unclear if the design was inspired by or shared any thing with the F1 cars of the time.
"To accomplish this the research staff borrowed a page from FORMULA ONE TECHNOLOGY and developed an upper and lower control arm or double wishbone design for both front and rear suspensions. "
"borrowed a page" doesn't actually mean the design was derived from F1 designs. It doesn't mean it wasn't but it's actually an ambiguous phrase that ultimately can only be taken to mean the two designs share something in common. Looking at pictures of the geometry and the construction shows little similarity to F1 cars of the day. Certainly no more similar to an F1 car than a Swift Formula Ford.

Honda and other makes had used double wishbone suspension in front for decades prior to the NSX and even in the rear the technology wasn't new. Even junior level race cars had been using A-arms in the back in the 70s. The Miata, released the same year as the NSX, had a double wishbone in back. I'm not sure which other production cars had a double wishbone in back prior to 1990 but I doubt Honda was the first (tied with Mazda). The 1989 300ZX has double wishbone. My quick search seems to indicate that most RWD/AWD cars prior to that had semi-trailing link rear ends. Notable exceptions would be Jag, the C2-C4 Corvettes, and Lotus which all had multi-link rear suspensions. Geometrically speaking, double A-arm is a subset of multi-link. Since the 1990s most cars have moved away from the semi-trailing arm designs favored by the Germans and Japanese in the 70s and 80 and towards full multi-link designs as pioneered by the British and GM. Ironically the current Corvette actually uses true A-arms at all 4 corners, not a rear multilink (again ignoring that A-arms are geometrically a subset of multilink).

So in summary, thank you for keeping this about cars and not bodies. You did say Honda invented, not Honda used. Cars have been using A-arms up front since prior to WW2. The NSX was a very impressive car and one of the earlier production cars to use A-arm rear suspension. It was not the first as it was beaten out by the 300ZX and depending on release date, Mazda as well.

This post has been edited by rockville: 18 November 2011 - 04:35 PM

Bring Back Mr Ed... er... Mr E.G.

#12 User is offline   Mr.E.G. 

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 04:15 PM

And just to everyone knows what this thread is about, Rockville always busts Silverstreak HX's balls because Silverstreak once went off on a fanboy rant about how GM sucks which ultimately culminated in Silverstreak HX claiming that Honda invented wishbone suspension. Rockville has apparently always given him shit about it and Silverstreak, being the numb nuts embarrassment to the human race that he is, thought this thread would vindicate him. The problem is that he's a goddamn moron and doesn't realize how little he knows.

Look, everyone can be wrong from time to time. Rockville schooled me in a thread the other day where I made a comment about the springing medium used on the C6 Vette whereby I was completely wrong. Rockville proved me wrong and I acquiesced like a responsible adult should. THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH BEING WRONG. There is, however, something very wrong about an adult who can't recognize when he's been bested. There are few things more pathetic than someone who feels the need to make a thread like this one in order to prove someone wrong only to reveal just how ignorant they are on the subject.

Congratulations, SIlverstreak. You've sufficiently embarrassed yourself. You should have just let it go.

Without further ado, here are the comments that got Silverstreak into this mess...


 Silverstreak HX, on 16 October 2004 - 01:15 AM, said:

Not all American engines suck just GM . Ask anyone that has had a GM engine for a couple of years and you will come to understand the truth.
No company is perfect not even Honda (Passport as a prime example)
However to me GM Engineering is "How cheap can we make it " compared to a company that has a Formula 1 engine that goes to 18,000 or more rpm.


to which someone responded:

 Grimace, on 16 October 2004 - 07:17 AM, said:


When is the last time Honda put an F1 engine in a passenger vehicle - I don't really get that comparison...

GM has good engines. LS1, LS6 V8's for example. The 3.8L V6 - not an exciting engine but bulletproof. The Ecotec is a strong motor if you are into modding, and if you've driven a supercharged one, it pulls a lot stronger than 205 HP suggests in the ION Redline (great engine looking for a better car).

If you want to talk racing, GM has done some 1000+ HP versions and broke the Pro FWD record at the Salt Flats with a done up ION Redline (212 MPH), then broke it again with a Cobalt SS (243 MPH!).
http://www.theautoch.../02/217390.html
Just because Honda didn't compete doesn't mean Honda's engine suck.



to which Silverstreak HX said:

 Silverstreak HX, on 17 October 2004 - 01:51 PM, said:

Well where did you think Honda VTEC came from not to mention the double wishbone suspension.
And as far as GM and drag racing go yeah that seems to be a good match . At least you know a GM engine can go the 1/4 mile before it needs rebuilding!
You GM fans need to get out more. First read some Consumer Reports on long term reliability then ask a few owners who have had them.
My friends dad works in a NAPA auto parts machine shop and he says GM has made his whole career rebuilding all that junk.


I have never actually read this before (I just did a quick search and found it) so it's really goddamn funny since I JUST USED VTEC AS AN EXAMPLE. Hahahaha. The dumb asshole also thinks that VTEC came from Honda's F1 program.

The best part is that he says it so matter-of-fact and definitively, like he's surprised that everyone didn't already know this. Hahahahaha.




In another thread, he posted the following:

 Silverstreak HX, on 13 October 2009 - 12:31 AM, said:


I sure wish someone could find this article ! What I read was Honda was talking about how some of their stuff trickled down from F1 to their road cars . 3 things- 1 PGM FI , VTEC, Double wishbone suspension!
One thing about it whether those wheel weights are a safety issue or not it sure shows how GM brings on another half-assed solution to a problem . Is it any wonder their customers are leaving by the droves?
I am glad u have finally shut up and realized that I and CR are Right about GM and it is especially a bad choice after getting Spoiled by Honda reliability. :D



In yet another thread:

 Silverstreak HX, on 11 December 2004 - 01:21 AM, said:


However Hondas technology of VTEC,PGM-FI,and double wishbone suspension all trickled down from F1 so Ferrari is not the only one to benefit from F1 and Hondas primary market is not 500 hp GT cars either.
Next is Gm engineering even involved in Nascar? Hell I thought they were all just private teams not factory teams so how could they be learning anything?
Every old technology from the phonograph,45 record,8 track tape, and cassette tape have found their way to the grave because of improved technology . Except Nascar the one that got away. The fans celebrate it like it is something special. If I live a thousand years I will never figure out its appeal for in my book it has no merit . I have to give the France family credit though they are delivering very low content entertainment and charging them top dollar for it. Pure marketing genius. One of the great con jobs in history - Nothing for something!
I will let the man himself step in: In 1964, when Honda first entered formula one, Mr Honda said


It looks like the bottom of his above quote didn't get indexed or he never finished his sentence.

The really awesome part about this is that he not only got it wrong but that he has continuously stated these types of comments over and over again. Priceless.

This post has been edited by Mr.E.G.: 18 November 2011 - 04:19 PM


#13 User is online   JonBoy 

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 04:17 PM

 Mr.E.G., on 18 November 2011 - 03:15 PM, said:

That's the thing though, it seems clear that you are taking the author's words and quoting them as if it came from the horse's mouth. Not to mention all of the other points I've mention over and over.


Are you actually suggesting that one cannot believe everything one reads? :confused:
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Posted 18 November 2011 - 04:20 PM

Forum sure has had some interesting drama as of late
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#15 User is offline   Mr.E.G. 

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 04:22 PM

Hahaha. Seriously, Jonboy.

The worst part is that he's still going to try and argue his way through this. Just be a man, Silverstreak. This is your one chance to just admit that you were wrong and laugh it off. Act like an adult and admit that you were wrong and I am positive that we are all mature enough here that we can let it go. YOU are the sole reason that this keeps getting dragged out. Stop embarrassing yourself.

This post has been edited by Mr.E.G.: 18 November 2011 - 04:23 PM


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Posted 18 November 2011 - 04:33 PM

 rockville, on 18 November 2011 - 04:05 PM, said:

... I'm not sure which other production cars had a double wishbone in back prior to 1990 but I doubt Honda was the first (tied with Mazda). The 1989 300ZX has double wishbone. My quick search seems to indicate that most RWD/AWD cars prior to that had semi-trailing link rear ends. ...
... It was not the first as it was beaten out by the 300ZX and depending on release date, Mazda as well.


MK3 Supra ... front and back :stick:

:LOL:

J

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 04:40 PM

 R1_Pilot, on 18 November 2011 - 04:33 PM, said:

 rockville, on 18 November 2011 - 04:05 PM, said:

... I'm not sure which other production cars had a double wishbone in back prior to 1990 but I doubt Honda was the first (tied with Mazda). The 1989 300ZX has double wishbone. My quick search seems to indicate that most RWD/AWD cars prior to that had semi-trailing link rear ends. ...
... It was not the first as it was beaten out by the 300ZX and depending on release date, Mazda as well.


MK3 Supra ... front and back :stick:

:LOL:

J

I read that after my post went up. You are completely correct. In my defense I didn't claim the 300ZX was first either, only that those were before the NSX.

On a separate note, someone has it out for Mr EG and even you. Your simple post stating that your Supra had wishbones got a thumbs down! Man, talk about some unhappy members around here LOL!

#18 User is offline   Mr.E.G. 

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 05:16 PM

Gee, I wonder who did that. :rolleyes:

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 05:17 PM

It would be better if instead of quoting him as saying "3 things- 1 PGM FI , VTEC, Double wishbone suspension!" you quoted him as saying "3 things- 1 PGM FI , VTEC, and third...er, um...nope, can't remember the third...oops."

#20 User is offline   rockville 

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 05:21 PM

 Mr.E.G., on 18 November 2011 - 05:16 PM, said:

Gee, I wonder who did that. :rolleyes:


I'm not sure as I thought only paid members could vote.

#21 User is offline   i_heart_my_DB8 

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 05:47 PM

 rockville, on 18 November 2011 - 05:21 PM, said:

 Mr.E.G., on 18 November 2011 - 05:16 PM, said:

Gee, I wonder who did that. :rolleyes:


I'm not sure as I thought only paid members could vote.


...and the plot thickens...

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#22 User is offline   Mr.E.G. 

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 06:15 PM

Hahahaha.

#23 User is offline   Mr.E.G. 

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 06:16 PM

 cbehney, on 18 November 2011 - 05:17 PM, said:

It would be better if instead of quoting him as saying "3 things- 1 PGM FI , VTEC, Double wishbone suspension!" you quoted him as saying "3 things- 1 PGM FI , VTEC, and third...er, um...nope, can't remember the third...oops."



Bwuhahahahahahahahahahahaha. He's the Rick Perry of S2ki.com. Hahahahaha.

#24 User is offline   ikeyballz 

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 11:42 PM

the golf cart that some guys I know at my university has double wishbones. Can they claim its F1 derived? :ponder:
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Posted 19 November 2011 - 12:26 AM

Triple wishbone is the future my friends
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2003 50th Z06 corvette:
Bridgestone re760 sports, Mobile 1 syn @ 30k, Redline ATF @ 31k, Redline diff @ 32k, Volant cold air intake, Skip shift mod, CLB installed, Taylor 10.4mm race wires, NGK iridium plugs, new GM valve springs.
-SOLD:94 sc300 (5spd), 05 WRX, 02 Sentra Spec V, 06 Mazdaspeed 6, 01 s2000, 02 Acura CL, 00 s2000, CURRENT:03 z06 corvette-

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