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churches dyna pack vs raceline dyno jet. My results 60 less hp on the dyno jet

#1 User is offline   riceball777 

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 03:14 AM

Church automotive testing here in so cal(Wilmington, ca) tuned my s2000. The car runs great but I just wanted to see what the car would do on a dyno jet. Churches dyno pack is always known to read higher than normal. My s2000 was tuned by Shawn church and made 385whp on his dyna pack. I ran the car today at Raceline in Temple City,CA with their dynojet and the car only dynode at 326whp. That's a whooping 60hp less!.

My car has been boosted for over 15,000miles. I have 0 problems with the car or the tune. My wide band shows about 14-15 on idel and low 11"s when in boost. But at the dynojet at race line, their wideband is showing 13.5 almost 14 to 1 air fuel in boost. Is this even possible? If that was true should the engine just blow up?


386whp at churches
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326whp at raceline
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pic of the engine bay
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This post has been edited by riceball777: 15 November 2012 - 03:23 AM

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#2 User is offline   psychoazn 

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 03:17 AM

dynos are tuning tools. Don't get too concerned about the actual number. The numbers are relative.

#3 User is offline   riceball777 

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 03:40 AM

 psychoazn, on 15 November 2012 - 03:17 AM, said:

dynos are tuning tools. Don't get too concerned about the actual number. The numbers are relative.

Yes I understand that but 60whp from a mid 300whp car seems kind of a lot. But more importantly raceline's dyno jet is showing 13.5 to 1 under fullboost. They make it sound like my car was tuned like crap and will/can blow up at any second. My aem wideband shows low 11's under full boost and they said my wide band is not right. I know church tuned my car for low 11's for the air fuel. Like I said the car has been driver for over 15,000 miles turboed and even autocrossed with 0 drivability problems. So either my car is running lean and is going to melt a piston or race lines wideband is way off. If the car was really running 13.5 to 1 air fuel shouldn't the motor already have blow up?

#4 User is offline   marcpb443 

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 08:19 AM

When was your last tune?
Turbo AP1 - 401whp 270tq - sold

#5 User is offline   riceball777 

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 08:32 AM

 marcpb443, on 15 November 2012 - 08:19 AM, said:

When was your last tune?


about 2 months ago

#6 User is offline   SLINKYDOG 

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 08:44 AM

just think a mustang dyno reads lower than dyno-jet. that is why NASA has a mustang dyno readings times 1.1 to equal a dyno-jets numbers.:tipwink:/>

#7 User is offline   spectacle 

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 08:48 AM

No surprise on the Church dyno. And I would lean towards the dyno jet wideband being bad. You would have melted something by now if it was truly running that lean.
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#8 User is offline   JoeyBalls 

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 10:46 AM

If you really want to know how much power your car makeshift take it to the drag strip a few times and look at the MPH
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#9 User is offline   s2000Junky 

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 02:05 PM

Trust your wideband, not a tail sniffer. A good working tail sniffer reads .5 leaner then actual. Many times its hard to get an accurate tail reading at all. These guys are trying to sell you on a retune, tell them to take advantage of someone else and fock off.
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#10 User is offline   Spoolin 

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 07:26 PM

Dynojets are the most accurate account of the power you are truly making on the street. They can not be manipulated like the other dynos and are very accurate. Take it to the track and your mph will back this up.
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#11 User is offline   timg 

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 08:52 PM

This is an old, but good read. Dynojets can be just as inaccurate as any other dyno. All dynos rely on trained personnel and up-to-date calibration.
http://www.turbomaga...sh/viewall.html


With that said, there is a good reason why OEMs use load bearing dynos like Superflow, Dynapack, Mustang, Rototest, and Mainline Dynolog.

Tim
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#12 User is offline   neoleooo 

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 01:10 AM

I think riceball777 is not concern about the difference in HP reading but more concern about the difference in air fuel reading. Shouldn't the air fuel reading be the same with all dynos?

#13 User is offline   timg 

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 07:38 AM

 neoleooo, on 18 November 2012 - 01:10 AM, said:

I think riceball777 is not concern about the difference in HP reading but more concern about the difference in air fuel reading. Shouldn't the air fuel reading be the same with all dynos?


It should be, but it isn't. Different widebands read differently, especially if the sensor is old or it wasn't calibrated properly. That's the downside to cheap consumer-grade widebands. There are very accurate widebands out there, but they tend to cost orders of magnitude more than the ones we (and most dyno shops) use.

Tim

#14 User is offline   camuman 

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 10:34 PM

Interesting. Churches dynapack always read high relative to other dynos. Nice to see it back to back. But In the end the delta is what matters.
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#15 User is offline   s2000Junky 

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 01:00 AM

 timg, on 18 November 2012 - 07:38 AM, said:

 neoleooo, on 18 November 2012 - 01:10 AM, said:

I think riceball777 is not concern about the difference in HP reading but more concern about the difference in air fuel reading. Shouldn't the air fuel reading be the same with all dynos?


It should be, but it isn't. Different widebands read differently, especially if the sensor is old or it wasn't calibrated properly. That's the downside to cheap consumer-grade widebands. There are very accurate widebands out there, but they tend to cost orders of magnitude more than the ones we (and most dyno shops) use.

Tim


I gladly trust my simple AEM wideband to be more accurate and reliable to tune with. It only sees my car on a day to day basis and I know when it isn't reading right anymore and a new sensor needs to be had, which is typically about ever 2 years for me.

#16 User is offline   Thunder-rush 

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 10:08 AM

If I was you I will go back to the dynojet and put a bit more fuel on the values and test if the power climbs with added fuel or drops just to have peace of mind. If it does go up, I will just retune if it drops you're probably fine. The thing is that the the dynojet graph you posted still looks choppy even with a smoothing of 5 and that raises a flag for me. Anyways by testing you are not going to loose your current tune if you save it.

This post has been edited by Thunder-rush: 19 November 2012 - 10:08 AM


#17 User is offline   indi00 

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 04:59 PM

I run two wide bands. One is the AEM connected to the AEM EMS, and one is a stand alone innovative LM-1. If these two don't agree then there is a problem.

The tuning process is dependent on the accuracy of the wide band, why skimp out on it.

#18 User is offline   sohc_mshue 

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 08:25 PM

Likely the dynojet wideband is off. Usually when I see widebands start to fail they will show lean spikes. Just try another one for piece of mind.
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#19 User is offline   neoleooo 

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 01:16 AM

 s2000Junky, on 19 November 2012 - 01:00 AM, said:

 timg, on 18 November 2012 - 07:38 AM, said:

 neoleooo, on 18 November 2012 - 01:10 AM, said:

I think riceball777 is not concern about the difference in HP reading but more concern about the difference in air fuel reading. Shouldn't the air fuel reading be the same with all dynos?


It should be, but it isn't. Different widebands read differently, especially if the sensor is old or it wasn't calibrated properly. That's the downside to cheap consumer-grade widebands. There are very accurate widebands out there, but they tend to cost orders of magnitude more than the ones we (and most dyno shops) use.

Tim


I gladly trust my simple AEM wideband to be more accurate and reliable to tune with. It only sees my car on a day to day basis and I know when it isn't reading right anymore and a new sensor needs to be had, which is typically about ever 2 years for me.

Sorry for the nub question but i'm using E85 and was planning to get the AEM wideband. I was wondering how it would read on E85?

#20 User is offline   Corey Maurer 

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 01:44 PM

It will read 28 points higher

#21 User is offline   spdracerut 

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 09:24 PM

 timg, on 15 November 2012 - 08:52 PM, said:

This is an old, but good read. Dynojets can be just as inaccurate as any other dyno. All dynos rely on trained personnel and up-to-date calibration.
http://www.turbomaga...sh/viewall.html


With that said, there is a good reason why OEMs use load bearing dynos like Superflow, Dynapack, Mustang, Rototest, and Mainline Dynolog.

Tim


Another good read:
http://www.motoiq.co...elieve-one.aspx

#22 User is offline   Ben @ Carolina Dyno 

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 12:26 PM

I would let them have a go at tuning it. Just by looking at the graph it is obvious something is wrong. You're graph should be very smooth especially with the smoothing on 5. It is also possible that Churches was using your wideband to tune with which could be wrong. When we tune we use Innovate widebands because we have found them to be the most accurate. I have found many AEM gauges reading very far off in customers cars before. I've even replaced my own sensors and re-calibrated just to be sure. In our experience AEM is the least reliable of the wideband controllers.

It's really no surprise at all about the power difference though. We use a Superflow and it would read even lower than the Dynojet.

This post has been edited by Ben @ Carolina Dyno: 23 November 2012 - 12:27 PM

RTA S2000- Unlimited Class

#23 User is offline   Kyushin 

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 01:11 PM

Not surprised here... my completely stock ctsc at the time, read 345 on his dyno

#24 User is offline   liquid_helix136 

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 02:28 AM

From what I've gathered, the closer the o2 sensor is to the engine, the more accurate of a reading your going to get. Having an end of the pipe sniffer compared to an in-line sniffer, I'm gonna put my money on the latter being more accurate, all else equal. To make things even more complicated, some people consider just one wideband to be insufficient as each cylinder is going to have slightly different AFRs, the wideband 99% of us have just read a mixture of all 4 cylinders, so as far as we know, 2 cylinders could be stoich, one could be super rich and the last dangerously lean, and our o2 sensors would be reading 14.7.

If your truly worried about it, I would just pick up a new wideband, pop it in and see what it says. If it reads 11s, you'll have peace of mind, a new wideband and you can sell your perfectly working old sensor.
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#25 User is offline   Ben @ Carolina Dyno 

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 09:06 AM

It's just as likely (actually much more likely) that if there is a problem with his wideband it's the controller/gauge and not the actual sensor.

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