Feezy's Build Thread - 2002 New Formula Red - Page 45 - S2KI Honda S2000 Forums



Feezy's Build Thread - 2002 New Formula Red

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Old 01-23-2017, 02:46 PM   #441
 
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Old 01-23-2017, 03:43 PM   #442
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Old 01-24-2017, 05:02 AM   #443
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But wait! There's more!
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Old 01-24-2017, 09:12 AM   #444
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That surge tank is beautiful
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Old 01-24-2017, 10:26 AM   #445
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Holy crap Feezy, that is some good stuff!
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Old 01-24-2017, 12:02 PM   #446
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Default Toda ITB Guide

Toda 50mm Sports Injection Kit, Toda Dry Carbon Surge Tank, and Toda ISCV

12.23.2016 - Toda Racing - Group (1) by Feezy, on Flickr

I talked above about a few reasons on why I chose to go with the Todas but I want to break down of the features that make this kit unique.

Fuel System
- Fuel rail accepts OEM injectors.- Fuel rail accepts OEM fuel delivery line.
- Front of the fuel rail is capped, so you can just run the FPR and the return off of the back of the feed. (Need to understand Pros/Cons)

Throttle
- Throttle linkage accepts OEM throttle cable.
- TPS is included with a harness to convert the OEM harness.

Coolant System
- Coolant bleed on front of manifold.
- Coolant neck angle is OEM and takes the OEM coolant fitting & sensor.
- No metal fitting in between the manifold and the coolant water neck like on the Haywards/Jenvey kits. (No chance for leaks)

Manifold & Vacuum
- Manifold is set up for multiple vacuum sources. No drilling required.- Extra vacuum sourced are capped or plugged with Allen bolts, you simply remove the cap or fitting to utilize the vacuum source.
- Multiple rows of vacuum sources allow you to run more than one vacuum system independent of each other. This is ideal for running an idle air control valve off of it's own system. (Surge Tank Optional)
- Allows you to plumb fresh air directly into the throttles.- Allows you to run a filter inline so you don't need to worry about filtering each individual throttle. (ISCV Optional)
- Comes with its own vacuum tube that is finished the same as the Toda fuel rail.
- Comes with an IACV off of a Toyota, uses the same plug as the OEM IACV.

Things that are needed.
- EMS: Current options are AEM Infinity or Haltech. I need more information on the pros/cons between the two, plus whatever sensors and harnesses are needed.
- Wideband 02 Sensor
- Fuel Pressure Regulator & FPR Sensor- Fuel Injectors (Are OEM enough, it seems like you would want something a few steps bigger)
- Fuel Injector Clips
- Vacuum block. Maybe, Maybe not. It's going to depend on how I set it all up. If I need one which one? I like the Urge block but it doesn't fit in the location it was designed for with the Todas dude to the way the throttle linkage mounts underneath the manifold.
- Braided Fuel Line
- Fuel Return Line- Fittings: AN6: Fuel Rail & FPR.
- Vacuum lines.
- Vacuum line fittings.
- OEM Coolant Neck Gasket.
- Intake Manifold Gasket.

Issues to Resolve

Lower Coolant Line
This line no longer has a home with ITBs. The last set up I vacuum capped it but I was never satisfied with that. Once of the members mentioned pluming it back into the system to avoid air bubbles. I'll need to look into that. I could also pull the fitting and tap and close it off permanently. I'm going to have to look into each option and see what works best for me.


Intake for Surge Tank
The surge tank is great, but it presents some new hurdles. I need to feed fresh air into it, and I'm not sure how I want to do it. I have a couple options as far as I see it.

Mugen Intake: A lot of the JDM companies seem to use the Mugen intake with a custom pipe or a Samco hose to attached to the intake. There are a few problems with this. The first is the weave on the Mugen doesn't match the Toda box, it's cosmetic but it still bothers me. The biggest issue is that the current available Mugen intakes open up behind the OEM bumper. If I ran a Mugen SS bumper I could utilize that location, but without it it's not what I want. The Mugen also needs a pipe to extend to the surge tank. The tank has a 90mm opening which is considerably larger than the OEM throttle size. Going with a Mugen v1 is also not an option. From the pictures I have seen of it the area that bends down into the bumper has a very tight pinch to it. That's going to be a restriction of airflow which I would like to avoid.

J's Racing Intake: J's sells a few different versions of their intake which allow me to pick and chose which features that I want. They have AP1 and AP2 options with the snorkel that reaches all the way down into the bumper opening, which is exactly what I want. The weave also matches the Toda box. The lung portion of the intake also has provisions for the OEM air pump lines as well as the line off the top of the valve cover. Alternatively I could use the AP2 version and delete the air pump as I don't believe it has the bungs. The problem with the J's is that the back half of the lung is sized specifically to fit on the OEM throttle in the OEM location. I'm not entirely sure it's going to line up with everything once I get everything installed and with it being thin carbon there isn't a lot of room for play. If I can get it lined up it's going to require a tapered coupler. The OEM throttle is something like 60/70mm so I'm looking at a 20/30mm taper right before the box, it will work, but it's not going to be ideal for power and it seems as if I'm putting all this work into the car then I should be conscious of things that will prevent the setup being optimal.
If the car was a RHD car J's racing makes an SPL induction system that has a tank and snorkel set up, but it doesn't fit the LHD cars. It's also more of a race car piece and the finish isn't as nice as the Toda box.

OEM Intake:The other option is to just utilize the OEM box with a custom pipe (similar to the Mugen) to connect to the surge tank. M&M Honda made one that would fit this application (and the Mugen Intake) but it's since been discontinued.

Custom Intake: I could work up something with some nice quality flexible hosing and route it somewhere with an appropriate sized filter. This seems like a reasonable and simple solution, however it's not going to look how I want.

I'd like the engine bay to look and feel complete and still have the OEM feel to it.At the end of the day I'm leaning towards the J's. I like the snorkel, I like the ability to mount all the hoses for the air pump should I decide to keep it installed. I've gotten my hands on a locals J's intake to check out, and the snorkel looks to be designed for a filter with a 4in opening in the back (I need to measure to confirm). That would lead me to believe the the included J's snorkel and filer would work for my application assuming I could modify or recreate the carbon lung to have an appropriately sized and place exit.

Fuel Injectors
I don't really know what I need here. I feel like I've seen guys talk about how the OEM injectors are reaching the higher end of their duty cycle at the higher end of our RPM range, so sticking with OEM might not be the best approach. I have no desire to run E85, so I doubt I need anything like 1000cc. Perhaps something somewhere between the two will work. I'm most likely going to need clips to run whatever injector I find. I would prefer the injector be black and fit in the fuel rail without adapters.

ECU
This seems like a toss up between the AEM Infinity and the equivalent Haltech offering. I'll pick up whatever sensors are needed for each set up, but I don't know which system is going to be better for my application. I do not need to smog my vehicles so that I not a concern for me, I simply want the car so function and behave as close to OEM as possible.
Researching this is exhausting, there is so much information all over the place when it comes to the ECUs. If anybody has any experience between the two, what they are capable of and the Pros/Cons to each I would really appreciate any input. Remember this is specifically for an ITB application should that make any difference.

Fuel System Configuration
I have seen people set up the fuel system multiple ways, as you can see in the Toda instruction manual they show you keeping the front of the rail pluged, and routing the back of the rail into the FPR, then out to the return. This is simple, requires the least amount of extras and looks the best. Is this ideal? I don't know. I assume there is a reason that you would want the FPR after the rail, but I need to look into this some more. I would like to set it up the way Toda suggests if there are no huge negatives.

Vacuum Lines & Routing
This is another black hole. How do I set all of this up? What's needed and what isn't? How much of a vacuum block do I need? Do I even need one? Is plumbing lines directly into sensors sufficient?

Toda shows that they have it set up with the brake booster plugged directly into the #4 runner. Is that good enough? I know when you open the throttles on ITBS you have no pretty much no vacuum, so it would make sense that as soon as you close the throttles you wouldn't want a vacuum block that needed to clear out before you had vacuum. Is running the brake booster into one runner acceptable for a street car? I do not want to get into a situation where I go for the brakes and they are not there.

If I do run the Brake booster directly into the #4 runner where do I get vacuum for the MAP and FPR? Can I just use the other three? Perhaps a vacuum block is necessary, which one do it want? Do I want a black with a large chamber, or is it better to go with one of the smaller chambers because as I understand it once you open the throttles you lose vacuum anyway. There are all things I need to figure out.

Regardless of how the other sensors are set up, the ISCV tank is going to plug directly into the four nipples on the end of the manifolds flange. The next step is figuring out how to mount the Iscv it self. I'm having some trouble figuring out how that's going to be done, but I'm sure that I can come up with some sort of solution.


Conclusion
I have lot of more questions and things that I want to figure out, but this feels like a good stopping point for now. I'm interested in hearing feedback and suggestions about any of the questions or items I listed above. I'm hoping that this thread can be much more comprehensive than my last ITB thread and can turn into a resource for people who are looking at ITBs and are trying to get an understanding of how and why things function so they can make the most educated decisions for their own set up.As always thank you for reading and I'm excited to hear your feedback and to get the project started.

Expect lots of updates and revisions over the course of this thread. I will try to keep the most current information at a high level here so someone who comes across this thread later has the important points right at the top.

You can find the posts specifically about the ITBs and their set up in the N/A Section found here https://www.s2ki.com/forums/s2000-naturally-aspirated-forum-213/feezys-toda-itb-build-discussion-thread-1168313/#post24141103 as it seems like that's where the in depth discussion should take place.


Last edited by Feezy; 01-24-2017 at 12:22 PM.
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Old 01-24-2017, 01:29 PM   #447
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When is your S2000 encyclopedia coming out Feezy?
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Old 01-24-2017, 02:08 PM   #448
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manga_Spawn View Post
When is your S2000 encyclopedia coming out Feezy?
So much this.

I read your updates with the most rapt attention. Your keen eye for detail and descriptions always keep me interested, and I feel like I learn something new every time. I'll be keeping my eye out for where this goes. Amazing car is about to get more amazing.
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Old 01-30-2017, 02:53 PM   #449
 
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yumm..love new parts..
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Old 02-01-2017, 04:04 PM   #450
 
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Feezy - take two on ITB's! Should be a nice build as you picked quality parts and workmanship for sure. I admire the fact that after years of ownership you still have the passion to further develop the vision for your NFR. Congrats!
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