That is an incredible exaggeration. To suggest that all German cars are in the shop on a weekly basis is silly. For the record, a German company Porsche, currently leads the JD Power long term reliability survey.

My guess here is that lots of people buy what they can afford and then rationalize their decision with other factors, perceived value, reliability etc.

My personal experience with German cars has been very positive; had I listened to all of the uninformed information I read on the various car forums I may never have given them a try.

Regarding the initial question; the M3 has a good initial warranty with an updated 10/100,000 powertrain warranty. If you are buying used you can get a certified car that carries a 6/100,000 warranty for almost all of the car; albeit with a 50 dollad deductible per visit.

 

CPO

 

I am closing in on 30K miles on my 2nd E46 M3 with no issues to speak of. It is a phenomenal car and the best daily driver on the planet IMO. BMW is in the process of replacing rod bearings on cars produced through May of 2003...my car is an 11/02 production car. BMW has already stepped up and extended the M3 powertrain warranty to 6 yrs./100K miles and now they are replacing parts as a precautionary measure at great expense to them. I have zero concerns. I will be paying off my M3 around December of this year and intend on keeping it FOREVER...or until the wheels fall off. It has a few faults like all cars but the overall driving experience will make those fade away rather quickly.

This may be true but Lexus' have ZERO personality or character. The LS 430 is a wonderful car as are all Lexus IMO but they are very bland looking and drive even more bland. My mothers 1999 528 just turned 140,000 and it has NEVER been in the shop for anything other than scheduled maintenance. I have owned a few Lexus's and while extremely reliable they don't offer much if any driving experience for enthusiasts like myself.

 

The big Lexus is great at what it is designed to do. As far as cars in that class go, the LS430 is a much better car than its German counterparts. Yes, the ride is cushy, but it isn't an M3 or and AMG, its a boat for old men.

I drove the 745Li and I can honestly say that the car wasn't worth the sticker. I would not pay more than 50k for a new one. The LS430 has nicer leather, interior appointments (especially the sound system), the cabin is a lot more quiet, and the service between Lexus and BMW cannot be compared.

The fact remains, overall, Japanese cars are consistently more reliable than German or American vehicles. I belive Lexus sells their vehicles on the notion that "according to an independent test, a 7 year old Lexus is more reliable than a 1 year old BMW." I am not sure where the quote came from, but it is on some Lexus literature.

As far as Steve C's comment about the reliability of Porsches, i half agree. A 10 year old Porsche with 10k miles is probably very reliable compared to a 10 year old Lexus with 150k miles. I would venture to guess that given equal mileage and age that the Toyota is a bit more reliable than the Porsche.

And as far as this thread goes, I would still buy an M3. Who cares about reliability, thats why warranties were created. Its a great car and sometimes sacrifices (like decreased reliability) are needed in order to create a vehicle that is so great in other aspects.

 

Exactly/\. Steve is right, but the statement isnt very accurate. Sure Porsche is a reliable car....but is it???

I know a few guys with a whole fleet of 911's from 996s to the old school. They have had their share of problems, (not major ones to be fair) However, no cars have over 50K on them.

The study on the porsche isnt good, because MANY owners use it as a 3rd or 4th car, meaning, it only sees a few thousand miles a year. NO WAY is a 996TT going to live to 150K while not doing a healthy cleaning to your wallet.

Now, a few other issues, I read this somewhere, and was told by the Rallye Motors service manager (largest BMW, Acura, BENZ, Rolls Royce, and Maybach dealer on the east coast) that the BMW 745 is considered to be the most problematic car ever produced. Customers are trading it in like wildfires, and it has a 90% unsatisfied rate.

Anyway, my point wasnt that German cars are not more fun, etc, however, NO german car outclasses the same class Japanese car in reliability.

A lot of you are BLINDED by the bullsh!t 100000 mile 10 year warranty. What good is that warranty if your $70 thousand dollar BMW is sitting at the dealership, while you pimp around a loaner 323? Just because the service is free, doesnt mean its not a gigantic pain in the a$$ to have to be without a car while the dealership orders parts, installs them, etc...you can be without a car for weeks! My friend's M3 was at the dealership for 5 days because the mirror tilted the wrong way when he put it in reverse!

My friend with an S4 (TT model) was at the dealer at LEAST 3 times a month for a bum sensor.

Sh1t, my Acura dealer drove a C class, and went through 8 (eight) transmissions in ONE YEAR! Then Mercedes said that the rest of the trannys are for customers only, and they cant replace it for free anymore since she is an employee of the dealership?! (which I never understood, since she bought the car, not like she got it for free)

Anyway, yes a lexus is VERY vanilla, but the bulk of the market for the S500, 745, Ls430, A8 is the 40-65 year old, with an average income of over 125K a year. Besides styling, none of those cars have anything on the LS430. No one is going to the drags with those cars, nor are they doing a spirited autocross. The thing that I used to hate about German cars, is that they were the best in class, expensive, and unreliable. Thus, I could never have one. Now, there are cars from Japan, that are better or equal, for less money, and dont break all the time.

Also, lets not forget, when I say unreliable, I dont mean motor/tranny/computers necessarily. To most of my friends, its the little things that count......
ie, mirror tilting the other way, headlight trim falling into headlight, washer nozzle flying off, m3 side gill falling off, window actuator broken, window hitting door trim, etc....Audi...gauge cluster electronic gremlins....these little things are the BIGGEST problem that my german owning friends have.

No disrespect to German cars or owners, but let be realistic here, there is a reason why they do not have Honda or Toyota reliability rep.

Just my .02

 

Well having owned a 2003 745Li I have to say that it was a wonderful vehicle as well and I'm certainly not a brand biased individual. The 745Li while heavy was still very much a BMW. When you close the doors it gave the secure feeling of being locked in a vault. The car was relatively quick and still handled quite well. It has Air-conditioned/Heated/Massaging seats that were the most comfortable of ANY CAR i've ever been in. The nav system was top notch and I grew kind of fond of the I-drive system. I could very comfortably carry 5 adults in the car and those in the rear had plenty of leg room. I have owned numerous BMW, Porsches and a few Audis and the only one's I ever had trouble with were the Audi's. I will most likely never own another Audi/VW but other than that my experience with German cars has been a great one. I have also owned numerous Toyotas/Lexus, Honda/Acuras and Nissans and love them as well but for the most part they don't have any competition for my M3. Acuras/Hondas are FWD with the exception of the S2000 and the NSX both of which I have owned and loved but neither offered the practicality or comfort of my M3.

As I mentioned, my BMW's have been trouble free. My parents are more BMW loyalists than I am and have owned many 5 series, 7 series and X series vehicles over the years. Many of them have been in their stable for well over 100,000 miles and still been very strong very reliable cars. In addition to which the exterior and interior of the car holds up better over time due to superior materials and build quality.

 

I have 13000 miles on my M this will be my fifth month of ownership with my 2004 M3 SMGII, not a single recall! My M3 is solid!!! No worries either b/c I'm under warranty.

I wouldn't buy any German car used w/o warranty... if you're thinking about an M3 or S4 make sure you purchase under warranty!!!

 

I agree with that 100%. I still look forward to getting a 997 in the next few years, but it will be a non-daily driver <12K miles a year (though it's intended use is more than just Sundays and golf outings - I don't golf, and Sundays is for autocross). As such, I am more than willing to put up with a car that's not as spot on reliable than a Lexus.

An M3 however, was built sort of as a daily driven GT, and it really does appear to have too many issues.

Ohh and I have an M3 - previous gen. Put all of it's 115K miles on it, and I've had my issues ($$). But to be honest, for the life it's led on track, autocross, hard NYC driving (read savage potholes and frost heaves etc), it's done OK. If I had a Lexus I'd have speant less in repairs.

...And more likely than not I'd have never used it anymore enthusiastically than a quick off ramp run. To boring a car. Then again, I'll never buy a 'lux' car just for pimpin'

 

Coming from a BMW owner, that statement proves me right. Something with reliability perhaps??? Dont hear too many people saying "if you buy an NSX or s2000, make sure its under warranty.

 

That's pretty obnoxious, Steve.



But your comment can be true on both sides:

People buy expensive cars and then try to rationalize why the reliability isn't an issue. That's great, but how can you be so arrogant to tell others what their time is worth to them?

And porsche's reliability is tanking with the addition of the Cayenne. It's still a porsche. And still german.

Regardless if your own personal experience has been good, there have been too many reports of badness.

If this was a medicine, it would be pulled from the shelves. Yeah, the adverse occurences don't happen to everyone....