Global Warming
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From: San Diego
Originally Posted by Slamnasty,Jul 9 2006, 10:03 PM
I'm struggling to find the logic in your argument. Whether or not we have data for the billions of years preceding the billions we have data for is irrelevent. To say we need to have every single bit of meteorological/geographical data from every single year from every single place on the globe since the very second Earth was born is utopian to a level of extremity I cannot fathom. If science was conducted that way in all its subfields, we'd still be cavepeople marveling at fire. That is a completely untenable way of conducting scientific research, and scientific progress is largely based upon data that shows objective trends in a particular direction.
To your dinosaur climate argument, dinosaurs were reptiles, i.e. cold-blooded animals. They could survive higher temperatures because they evolved that way, and didn't have hair to warm them up (largely). Their climate changed dramatically in a very short period of time, and the small animals that had already begun evolving fur prevailed. Dinosaurs also became much smaller (like the once feeble first mammals) due to lower levels of oxygen in the atmostphere, which is a big reason why we don't have very large reptilian animals standing dozens of feet tall walking the earth anymore.
You seem to be saying that we are misreading our own planet. That's odd, because we as an evolved lifeform favor this/these climate(s), and we would have to drastically change to adapt to a sudden, major shift in the Earth's patterns, even ones we bring upon ourselves. The argument that the world is too big for us to impact it detrimentally to ourselves is IMO completely ignorant of so many facts, I don't know where to start. Human civilizations have been damming rivers for ages, which directly affects smaller habitsts downstream. This is only one example of the power we have that no other life form on this planet has ever had, let alone to the same degree.
Here's another point: This planet had only 2 billion people back in the first half of the 20th century. Since that time we have increased our numbers to over 6 billion, and are projected to reach 9 billion by 2010. That expansion has occurred within the span of a single person's lifetime.
The polar ice caps are melting at a very fast rate. Their doing so because of warmer temperatures raises ocean levels. Raising ocean levels puts tens of millions of people in coastal cities and regions at risk (Shanghai, NY, the Netherlands, India, etc.). This by the way would cause a massive refugee problem in countries all over the world, and when you have refugees, you have geopolitics, and where politics is involved, things can get real ugly for the people most affected by rising tides.
We have the ability as humans to avoid such occurrences. Making better choices about how we conduct ourselves and our societies is very important. WE choose our future, the future isn't inevitable unless we set it up to be that way. That's why we as a race are completely different from other animals. Not acting proactively for the future is far more costlier than relying on informed, educated guesses.
As a final note, yes, I do in fact recommend Al Gore's movie.
To your dinosaur climate argument, dinosaurs were reptiles, i.e. cold-blooded animals. They could survive higher temperatures because they evolved that way, and didn't have hair to warm them up (largely). Their climate changed dramatically in a very short period of time, and the small animals that had already begun evolving fur prevailed. Dinosaurs also became much smaller (like the once feeble first mammals) due to lower levels of oxygen in the atmostphere, which is a big reason why we don't have very large reptilian animals standing dozens of feet tall walking the earth anymore.
You seem to be saying that we are misreading our own planet. That's odd, because we as an evolved lifeform favor this/these climate(s), and we would have to drastically change to adapt to a sudden, major shift in the Earth's patterns, even ones we bring upon ourselves. The argument that the world is too big for us to impact it detrimentally to ourselves is IMO completely ignorant of so many facts, I don't know where to start. Human civilizations have been damming rivers for ages, which directly affects smaller habitsts downstream. This is only one example of the power we have that no other life form on this planet has ever had, let alone to the same degree.
Here's another point: This planet had only 2 billion people back in the first half of the 20th century. Since that time we have increased our numbers to over 6 billion, and are projected to reach 9 billion by 2010. That expansion has occurred within the span of a single person's lifetime.
The polar ice caps are melting at a very fast rate. Their doing so because of warmer temperatures raises ocean levels. Raising ocean levels puts tens of millions of people in coastal cities and regions at risk (Shanghai, NY, the Netherlands, India, etc.). This by the way would cause a massive refugee problem in countries all over the world, and when you have refugees, you have geopolitics, and where politics is involved, things can get real ugly for the people most affected by rising tides.
We have the ability as humans to avoid such occurrences. Making better choices about how we conduct ourselves and our societies is very important. WE choose our future, the future isn't inevitable unless we set it up to be that way. That's why we as a race are completely different from other animals. Not acting proactively for the future is far more costlier than relying on informed, educated guesses.
As a final note, yes, I do in fact recommend Al Gore's movie.
Sam
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From: WA
Originally Posted by Slamnasty,Jul 10 2006, 12:03 AM
I'm struggling to find the logic in your argument. Whether or not we have data for the billions of years preceding the billions we have data for is irrelevent. To say we need to have every single bit of meteorological/geographical data from every single year from every single place on the globe since the very second Earth was born is utopian to a level of extremity I cannot fathom. If science was conducted that way in all its subfields, we'd still be cavepeople marveling at fire. That is a completely untenable way of conducting scientific research, and scientific progress is largely based upon data that shows objective trends in a particular direction.
To your dinosaur climate argument, dinosaurs were reptiles, i.e. cold-blooded animals. They could survive higher temperatures because they evolved that way, and didn't have hair to warm them up (largely). Their climate changed dramatically in a very short period of time, and the small animals that had already begun evolving fur prevailed. Dinosaurs also became much smaller (like the once feeble first mammals) due to lower levels of oxygen in the atmostphere, which is a big reason why we don't have very large reptilian animals standing dozens of feet tall walking the earth anymore.
You seem to be saying that we are misreading our own planet. That's odd, because we as an evolved lifeform favor this/these climate(s), and we would have to drastically change to adapt to a sudden, major shift in the Earth's patterns, even ones we bring upon ourselves. The argument that the world is too big for us to impact it detrimentally to ourselves is IMO completely ignorant of so many facts, I don't know where to start. Human civilizations have been damming rivers for ages, which directly affects smaller habitsts downstream. This is only one example of the power we have that no other life form on this planet has ever had, let alone to the same degree.
Here's another point: This planet had only 2 billion people back in the first half of the 20th century. Since that time we have increased our numbers to over 6 billion, and are projected to reach 9 billion by 2010. That expansion has occurred within the span of a single person's lifetime.
The polar ice caps are melting at a very fast rate. Their doing so because of warmer temperatures raises ocean levels. Raising ocean levels puts tens of millions of people in coastal cities and regions at risk (Shanghai, NY, the Netherlands, India, etc.). This by the way would cause a massive refugee problem in countries all over the world, and when you have refugees, you have geopolitics, and where politics is involved, things can get real ugly for the people most affected by rising tides.
We have the ability as humans to avoid such occurrences. Making better choices about how we conduct ourselves and our societies is very important. WE choose our future, the future isn't inevitable unless we set it up to be that way. That's why we as a race are completely different from other animals. Not acting proactively for the future is far more costlier than relying on informed, educated guesses.
As a final note, yes, I do in fact recommend Al Gore's movie.
To your dinosaur climate argument, dinosaurs were reptiles, i.e. cold-blooded animals. They could survive higher temperatures because they evolved that way, and didn't have hair to warm them up (largely). Their climate changed dramatically in a very short period of time, and the small animals that had already begun evolving fur prevailed. Dinosaurs also became much smaller (like the once feeble first mammals) due to lower levels of oxygen in the atmostphere, which is a big reason why we don't have very large reptilian animals standing dozens of feet tall walking the earth anymore.
You seem to be saying that we are misreading our own planet. That's odd, because we as an evolved lifeform favor this/these climate(s), and we would have to drastically change to adapt to a sudden, major shift in the Earth's patterns, even ones we bring upon ourselves. The argument that the world is too big for us to impact it detrimentally to ourselves is IMO completely ignorant of so many facts, I don't know where to start. Human civilizations have been damming rivers for ages, which directly affects smaller habitsts downstream. This is only one example of the power we have that no other life form on this planet has ever had, let alone to the same degree.
Here's another point: This planet had only 2 billion people back in the first half of the 20th century. Since that time we have increased our numbers to over 6 billion, and are projected to reach 9 billion by 2010. That expansion has occurred within the span of a single person's lifetime.
The polar ice caps are melting at a very fast rate. Their doing so because of warmer temperatures raises ocean levels. Raising ocean levels puts tens of millions of people in coastal cities and regions at risk (Shanghai, NY, the Netherlands, India, etc.). This by the way would cause a massive refugee problem in countries all over the world, and when you have refugees, you have geopolitics, and where politics is involved, things can get real ugly for the people most affected by rising tides.
We have the ability as humans to avoid such occurrences. Making better choices about how we conduct ourselves and our societies is very important. WE choose our future, the future isn't inevitable unless we set it up to be that way. That's why we as a race are completely different from other animals. Not acting proactively for the future is far more costlier than relying on informed, educated guesses.
As a final note, yes, I do in fact recommend Al Gore's movie.
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From: In the heart of the USSA!
Originally Posted by Slamnasty,Jul 10 2006, 12:03 AM
I'm struggling to find the logic in your argument. Whether or not we have data for the billions of years preceding the billions we have data for is irrelevent.
I do feel that humans can cause some changes to the earth that may not always be good, (dust bowl, etc.), however I am one of the people who believes that the earth has had and will continue to have warmer and cooler periods and will continue to do so long after humans are gone. I am concerned about the environment and believe in careful but realistic management. I do not however buy into the current popular thoughts on global warming. That of course may well be because I'm nothing more than an ignorant country hick.
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From: Phoenix
Dinosaurs were not reptiles and most likely warm-blooded
[QUOTE]I have no argument to make, just observations and questions. I was just noting that for most of earth
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From: Plano
Originally Posted by Slamnasty,Jul 9 2006, 09:38 PM
and on top of that add the the removal of farm lands here, *AND* the dearth of foliage in new commercial and residential developments in the US, it makes plenty of sense to me.
Oops. Missed on this one. Total forestation in the U.S. is down about 25% since 1600.
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From: Phoenix
Originally Posted by Slithr,Jul 10 2006, 09:42 AM
My understanding is that there are more trees in the U.S. now than there were when the Pilgrims landed.
I know where I come from in the midwest, farmlands are sold off on a quarterly basis for new housing developments. This removes those natural "wind breaks" full of trees that farms used to have. The new road and highway extensions in town also do not go through wooded areas, which might otherwise soak up a lot of the CO2 emitted by cars
Here in Phoenix, I challenge anyone to find more than a quarter mile of inner-city highway that has a tree over the age of 5-10 years on it. Yes it's Phoenix, but deciduous tree can still survive here.
If there are more trees, I'd like to know where they're hiding, because all the new housing developments going up actually plow old tree down to make room. It's also a question of density, which is why deforestation in South America is such a problem. The massive forests down there are one of nature's big regulators, much like the ocean current system. The Earth has a finite number of its own weather control devices because it is a finite place.
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From: Santa Monica/West LA
Originally Posted by Slamnasty,Jul 10 2006, 06:03 AM
I'm struggling to find the logic in your argument. Whether or not we have data for the billions of years preceding the billions we have data for is irrelevent. To say we need to have every single bit of meteorological/geographical data from every single year from every single place on the globe since the very second Earth was born is utopian to a level of extremity I cannot fathom. If science was conducted that way in all its subfields, we'd still be cavepeople marveling at fire. That is a completely untenable way of conducting scientific research, and scientific progress is largely based upon data that shows objective trends in a particular direction.
To your dinosaur climate argument, dinosaurs were reptiles, i.e. cold-blooded animals. They could survive higher temperatures because they evolved that way, and didn't have hair to warm them up (largely). Their climate changed dramatically in a very short period of time, and the small animals that had already begun evolving fur prevailed. Dinosaurs also became much smaller (like the once feeble first mammals) due to lower levels of oxygen in the atmostphere, which is a big reason why we don't have very large reptilian animals standing dozens of feet tall walking the earth anymore.
You seem to be saying that we are misreading our own planet. That's odd, because we as an evolved lifeform favor this/these climate(s), and we would have to drastically change to adapt to a sudden, major shift in the Earth's patterns, even ones we bring upon ourselves. The argument that the world is too big for us to impact it detrimentally to ourselves is IMO completely ignorant of so many facts, I don't know where to start. Human civilizations have been damming rivers for ages, which directly affects smaller habitsts downstream. This is only one example of the power we have that no other life form on this planet has ever had, let alone to the same degree.
Here's another point: This planet had only 2 billion people back in the first half of the 20th century. Since that time we have increased our numbers to over 6 billion, and are projected to reach 9 billion by 2010. That expansion has occurred within the span of a single person's lifetime.
The polar ice caps are melting at a very fast rate. Their doing so because of warmer temperatures raises ocean levels. Raising ocean levels puts tens of millions of people in coastal cities and regions at risk (Shanghai, NY, the Netherlands, India, etc.). This by the way would cause a massive refugee problem in countries all over the world, and when you have refugees, you have geopolitics, and where politics is involved, things can get real ugly for the people most affected by rising tides.
We have the ability as humans to avoid such occurrences. Making better choices about how we conduct ourselves and our societies is very important. WE choose our future, the future isn't inevitable unless we set it up to be that way. That's why we as a race are completely different from other animals. Not acting proactively for the future is far more costlier than relying on informed, educated guesses.
As a final note, yes, I do in fact recommend Al Gore's movie.
To your dinosaur climate argument, dinosaurs were reptiles, i.e. cold-blooded animals. They could survive higher temperatures because they evolved that way, and didn't have hair to warm them up (largely). Their climate changed dramatically in a very short period of time, and the small animals that had already begun evolving fur prevailed. Dinosaurs also became much smaller (like the once feeble first mammals) due to lower levels of oxygen in the atmostphere, which is a big reason why we don't have very large reptilian animals standing dozens of feet tall walking the earth anymore.
You seem to be saying that we are misreading our own planet. That's odd, because we as an evolved lifeform favor this/these climate(s), and we would have to drastically change to adapt to a sudden, major shift in the Earth's patterns, even ones we bring upon ourselves. The argument that the world is too big for us to impact it detrimentally to ourselves is IMO completely ignorant of so many facts, I don't know where to start. Human civilizations have been damming rivers for ages, which directly affects smaller habitsts downstream. This is only one example of the power we have that no other life form on this planet has ever had, let alone to the same degree.
Here's another point: This planet had only 2 billion people back in the first half of the 20th century. Since that time we have increased our numbers to over 6 billion, and are projected to reach 9 billion by 2010. That expansion has occurred within the span of a single person's lifetime.
The polar ice caps are melting at a very fast rate. Their doing so because of warmer temperatures raises ocean levels. Raising ocean levels puts tens of millions of people in coastal cities and regions at risk (Shanghai, NY, the Netherlands, India, etc.). This by the way would cause a massive refugee problem in countries all over the world, and when you have refugees, you have geopolitics, and where politics is involved, things can get real ugly for the people most affected by rising tides.
We have the ability as humans to avoid such occurrences. Making better choices about how we conduct ourselves and our societies is very important. WE choose our future, the future isn't inevitable unless we set it up to be that way. That's why we as a race are completely different from other animals. Not acting proactively for the future is far more costlier than relying on informed, educated guesses.
As a final note, yes, I do in fact recommend Al Gore's movie.
Hah, I too, recommend watching the Inconvenient Truth, it's quite an eye opener.
I just hope it can help to change peoples attitudes enough that it makes a difference.
I mean hey, we were able to stop using the harmful products that caused that big hole in the ozone layer, enough for it to begin to heal and shrink in size. I just hope it isn't to late to reverse the global warming trend that so many seem to be in denial/unconvinced of.
.02 thrown in.
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From: Phoenix
Originally Posted by DouglaS2000,Jul 10 2006, 01:59 PM
Hah, I too, recommend watching the Inconvenient Truth, it's quite an eye opener.
I just hope it can help to change peoples attitudes enough that it makes a difference.
I mean hey, we were able to stop using the harmful products that caused that big hole in the ozone layer, enough for it to begin to heal and shrink in size. I just hope it isn't to late to reverse the global warming trend that so many seem to be in denial/unconvinced of.
.02 thrown in.
Why can't we do the same with CO2 and greenhouse gases?